Cold water fin/binding adjustments

scotchipmanscotchipman Posts: 3,653
edited October 17 in Skis Fins Bindings
Yes it is that time of year again! I was re-reading this article by Chris Rossi and wanted to see if there is any more of a consensus now days. I agree with everything Chris has to say even if I can't wrap my head around a few things. What we do know as fact is that as the water cools it becomes more dense and the viscosity increases. I have read that the increase in density is very minimal and the main thing you will notice as the water cools is the increased in drag due to the increased viscosity. The one thing I hate to hear each fall is that cold water is fast, fluid dynamics proves this false. I think the reason people come to the conclusion that cold water is fast is because the increased drag on the ski as the water cools causes you to come into the buoy narrow which makes it feel fast.
- President of the Utah Water Ski Club
- Crypto Investing pays for my water ski addiction
mbabiash

Comments

  • markchilcuttmarkchilcutt Posts: 773 Crazy Baller
    Good points made in the other thread "I suck" @scotchipman and this binding move might work for some but not others depending on how they ski ie someone who skis on the tail vs someone who uses more of the whole ski hence the reason i ask to see vid of @oldjeep‌?

    Very interesting and great article written by @chrisrossi that you attached above. Notice the date it was written 2009. I would argue and say ski design has changed a lot since Rosco wrote that and possibly some of his ski tuning theory? i could be wrong.
    Another point we might both be missing is what are the temp swings we are seeing in Utah compared to other parts of the country ie Florida and how can those extremes effect ski tuning? A few points i will make with binding forward and back for me on a 67 Vapor this season.
    This spring 2014 i went to florida to ski school for 4 or 5 days of skiing on a 2014 Radar Vapor. I had been skiing 62 to 65 deg water in Utah on Rossi's suggested settings. The water in Florida was 75 to 78 and i struggled on my first set. I contacted the slalomguru and explained what i was feeling.
    "i feel like i am on the tail of the ski when pulling from the bouy through the wakes" Rossi suggested i move my boots back 3/16". I tried to argue and he laughed and said trust me. I made the move and was blown away with my very next set on the same lake same boat same driver same day. Skiing was easy and fun again!!
    I guess the theory is i had more ski in the water with bindings forward causing it to want to stick or stop during the turns causing me to shift my body position back ie causing me to go backseat when behind the boat.
    When i left florida i moved back to original location forward knowing i was heading back to colder Utah water.
    Fast forward to July.
    In the beginning of July after 2 weeks off the water i struggled to get through some of my easier passes at 32 and 35 when the water was peaking around 78 in Utah then i remembered the move back and gained a whole pass in the same day during practice.
    After a unusual cold rainy snap in August and a 10 degee drop in water temp i moved bindings forward and gained the 6 bouys i had lost in practice again all taking place on the same day same lake same boat same driver from 1st set to 2nd set.
    I have now used this same move several times in my favor.
    Last week going to the Clifornia ProAm i moved my bindings back before flying out of Utah knowing i was going to warmer water and felt right at home on my ski with no practice scoring 3@35 both tourny rounds.
    I also talked to several other MM skiers at the ProAm who came from colder water (most of them on Goode) and they also moved binding back to help stop the ski from sticking.
    Anywho that is what i am finding.
    Ski it if you can!!!!
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,769 Mega Baller
    Don't forget the skier is colder and tighter and performs for shorter durations in cold water. That to me is the biggest issue. Getting worse with age too.
    markchilcutt
  • Very good point @AB, getting your body properly warmed up in cold weather/water is a issue that will for sure decrease performance.
    - President of the Utah Water Ski Club
    - Crypto Investing pays for my water ski addiction
  • scotchipmanscotchipman Posts: 3,653
    edited September 2014
    My response to @markchilcutt from this thread http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/11777/i-suck.

    Some very good points @markchilcutt and again I'm not suggesting at all that you are wrong. What I think I notice with my ski as the water cools may not be actually what is happening but I still feel that as the water cools I have more tip in the water. What I feel as more tip in the water I think is mostly due to the increased drag, some possibly because the tail is riding a little higher in the denser water and as a result the tip lower. What you noticed with many skiers including yourself liking your bindings back in the warmer water may (could be wrong?) have been because you needed more speed in the warmer (slower) water which moving bindings back will provide.

    I did sent a text to Chris Rossi to see if he has made any changes to http://www.slalomguru.com/articles.php?article=cold but have yet to hear back.
    - President of the Utah Water Ski Club
    - Crypto Investing pays for my water ski addiction
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,148 Mega Baller
    edited September 2014
    Regarding the term "fast water."

    Like you @scotchipman, I've always believed the term "fast water" comes from cold water's tendency to send us narrow at the ball. I still believe this to be true but I've recently changed my tune on the actual speeds achieved in warm and cold water.

    The increased viscosity and surface tension of cold water definitely increase drag, but a strong skier with good acceleration technique can easily overcome the marginal increase in drag, and this drag is only part of the picture. Cold water also gives the ski's edges more traction. Instead of being dragged down the lake by the boat, a hard and efficient lean on an edge that is hooked up in water that resists being displaced is going to generate a lot of actual speed.

    In snow ski racing, if the skier is sliding with visible spray, he is relatively slow. The better the edge, the less the skis slide, and the faster the skier's time. Why wouldn't the same be true in water skiing? And while water skis already track more precisely through cold water than warm, adding even more speed to the mix can only exaggerate how precisely the ski tracks through the edge-change and pre-turn. Not only does the ski want to track narrow at the ball, it actually may be travelling faster than usual too. No wonder cold water is so challenging!

    In the opposite case of hot water, you've no doubt noticed how hard it is to get going in such soupy mushy water. Hot water offers less traction so it's harder to accelerate. Sure it's more forgiving, especially around the balls where the ski is riding deep and stable; and it's easy to get wide because it drifts wide somewhat despite where it is pointed, but it's hard to actually find much support or traction for hard acceleration anywhere.

    Perhaps top speeds in cold water actually are faster than they are in warm water.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... because understanding is better than memorizing
    cragginshred
  • @SkiJay I agree that the increased density will increase the traction and speed but @MCskiFreak pointed out in another thread that the density change from 25C to 4C is very small (around .992) so I would say that is almost negligible. I still think the bigger factor is the increased viscosity and surface tension of cold water increasing drag and making cold water slower. Yes a good skier with a strong acceleration technique can overcome this increased drag.

    I obviously don't have the answers but like to see what others are thinking and what if any changes they have made over the years in their thinking.
    - President of the Utah Water Ski Club
    - Crypto Investing pays for my water ski addiction
  • tbrenchleytbrenchley Posts: 120 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I love how complicated we can make this sport. :)
    scotchipmanDrago
  • @tbrenchley, get back to work on that new binding system so we can both ski next year without breaking our ankles. :D
    - President of the Utah Water Ski Club
    - Crypto Investing pays for my water ski addiction
    AkBob
  • markchilcuttmarkchilcutt Posts: 773 Crazy Baller
    Oh wow @tbrenchley‌ tell us all about your new binding system! Patent pending?
    Ski it if you can!!!!
  • DragoDrago Posts: 841 Crazy Baller
    Ok, if cold water is more dense , howizit when I pull out for the gates I go flying down course and miss them on the late side ?
  • scotchipmanscotchipman Posts: 3,653
    edited September 2014
    @Drago, good question. The question is not if cold water is more dense or more viscous but in the real world how does it effect your ski. I believe that the increase in density is very slight and likely not noticeable but the increase in viscosity does cause a noticeable increase in drag. If I had to guess why you end up down course in colder water it would be because you are starting your pullout in the same spot but you have to pull slightly longer in the slower water to get the same width, as a result you end up faster in the normal spot where you want to turn in for the gates.
    - President of the Utah Water Ski Club
    - Crypto Investing pays for my water ski addiction
  • DragoDrago Posts: 841 Crazy Baller
    This whole subject is a den of pandas for me. I agree with @markchilcutt‌ and @AdamCord‌ (another thread). Reminds me of Schnitz, way back, "you could add length...or take some out". Figuring out the actual "problem" is the hard part. Is someone feeling "speed" because the ski tip rides higher, or feeling drag because the tail rides higher and pushes the tip down? So, as I tell the kids I coach, "If you think you can or you think you can't, you're right."
    markchilcuttMS
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,769 Mega Baller
    I always thought that my ski rode flat to the water in cold water and tip up in hot water. For cold I adjusted things that would get the tip up and vice versa for hot water. Now, when the water gets cold, I find I am not motivated to jump in.
    scotchipmanDrago
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,673 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    That is a great link to Rossi's articles. I did re-read the one on cold water adjustments. I really liked his explanation of what forward and back does to the ski. This adjustment has always been a bit of mystery to me. Horton's "ski as a lever" seemed to make sense, but didn't always match in feel on the water. The thought of making the ski "longer or shorter" didn't necessarily feel right either.

    I went back with the fin my last couple of sets and can feel what Rossi described of this move keeping the tip going out longer past the second wake. It also makes me understand why I have typically liked the fin forward. I tend to come up early and likely need the tip to move in more easily as I have a flatter are to the buoy.

    Again, thanks for the link!
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    Here's my question... There seems to be a list of things to help with adjusting from warm to colder water. Is there a priority or sequence or some logic to take one of those actions over another? It would be cool to have something along the lines of this to guide us...

    First try "x".
    If that didn't work, then put "x" back to normal and then try "y".
    If that didn't work, then keep "y", but also do "z".
    If still having issues, put "y" and "z" back to normal, and try "a".
    etc.

    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    Zman
  • ZmanZman Posts: 955 Crazy Baller
    @ToddL‌ ......and if all that fails, just ski.
    Blood type IPA
    ToddL
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,673 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Todd. Did you read the Rossi article? I think he basically lays it out similar to what you are asking for. (At least for your first two lines of questioning) He gives a number of options starting with what he does first. I would think you could just run through his suggestions one by one and see which one feels best to you.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    @MrJones - yes, I read it. It does state: "I have listed the suggested changes in the order that I change them." I guess I was wondering if these steps are additive or sequentially individual - as in does the skier try the first, then if it doesn't work, put it back then try the 2nd...
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • scotchipmanscotchipman Posts: 3,653
    New link to @Chris Rossi article since the one at the top of the thread was not working for me tonight https://www.usawaterski.org/pages/Instructional Articles/Slalom/ColdWaterRecommendations.pdf
    - President of the Utah Water Ski Club
    - Crypto Investing pays for my water ski addiction
  • scotchipmanscotchipman Posts: 3,653
    Bump, that time of year again.
    - President of the Utah Water Ski Club
    - Crypto Investing pays for my water ski addiction
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 1,818 Mega Baller
    @scotchipman Better update the link to the article.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 647 Crazy Baller
    edited October 17
  • S1PittsS1Pitts Posts: 30 Baller
    All I know is this is my favorite time of the year as I just love the whole feel of cold water skiing. Being in decent conditioning nearing the end of the season I am with @Zman - just get in that 54 deg F water and ski like nobody is watching.
    The most challenging ski I have ever had was in 38 deg F water. Too old for that anymore.
  • scotchipmanscotchipman Posts: 3,653
    edited October 17
    Thanks @Gloersen for the updated links! I would update the links if I was able to edit the posts, any help @Horton or @MattP.
    - President of the Utah Water Ski Club
    - Crypto Investing pays for my water ski addiction
Sign In or Register to comment.

Not sure how to deal with a long link?