I found this very interesting…….

Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,071 Mega Baller
edited November 2014 in Advanced Topics
The recently posted slow motion video of Terry Winter had many examples of great technique. However, there was one particular thing Terry does that I have not seen as pronounced in any other skier. We always talk about what good body position should be, but what limits most of us is “how” to achieve that position. This video gave me one of those “ahaahhhh” moments.

As he approaches and goes through the wakes, he pulls his trailing elbow back while simultaneously thrusting his knees/hips/ski forward. This is really hard to see at full speed, but in slo-mo it’s very distinct. The motion appears to be like pulling to start a lawnmower or chainsaw – that is pulling back, not in.

The mid point of this is that shortly after the second wake, his trailing (inside) elbow is at a full 90 degree angle coming into 1/3 and almost 90 degrees coming into 2/4. Handle control at its finest. This is apparent at all line lengths, but becomes less pronounced by 41.








Outside of the obvious difference of TW having his ski WAAAY out in front, the more important effect is in the rotation of the hips and upper body. While I think “counter-rotation” is widely misunderstood, it is easy to see the difference in how the shoulders are turned more clockwise between TW and the FOG*.

Digging a little deeper, the more important subtlety that I think this “pull back” motion really does is help to rotate the hips outbound – clockwise going into 1/3 (or more accurately resist the hips from being rotated into the turn). That’s where the counter rotation really happens – with the hips, not the shoulders.





Look at the difference in rotation of the hips and shoulders – and how can that be changed?

What it looks like to me is that this can be initiated by pulling the trailing hand/elbow back smoothly and firmly and simultaneously moving the inside hip forward. After trying this on land with just a handle section, the feeling is like corkscrewing the hips and keeping pressure on the outside shoulder through the motion. This is a motion that I think most skiers can physically do since the arm motion is not directly against the pull of the boat as opposed to thinking “hold the handle to the hips on the edge change” in direct opposition to the boat. Again, think of the motion of pull starting a lawnmower.



So no matter what position we have at the wakes, it can be improved by pulling back on the inside arm and pushing the inside hip toward shore.

This also ties in directly with handle control and keeping the upper body in a properly aligned position.

http://www.ballofspray.com/home-v16/tech-articles-mainmenu/87-what-the-heck-is-handle-control
http://www.ballofspray.com/home-v16/tech-articles-mainmenu/785-staying-open

Too bad it will be March before I can try it.

*FOG – Friggin Old Guy
If it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.
6ballsSteven HainesTUPBradyBulldogRpc29ozskiSkiJayskialex

Comments

  • DirtDirt Posts: 1,438 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I believe what you are seeing is how he snaps the ski across and outbound at edge change. When trying to do this, it may be better to concentrate on swinging/snapping/moving the ski across with countered hips. The handle is the pivot point and the elbow movement may be a result of the lower body movement.
    Then again, I may be completely wrong.
    I learned everything I know not to do from Horton
    WishHorton
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,071 Mega Baller
    @dirt you are correct. Yours is just a different description of the same movement. There are many ways to describe this and what I wrote is what made sense to me.
    If it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.
  • WishWish Posts: 6,808 Mega Baller
    edited November 2014
    What @Dirt said. He also deweight the ski by sucking his knees up...I think.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 4,529 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    No way I can get the ski out in front of me like that anatomically, but the notion of elbow back is interesting to me and something that may kick me that notch wider that makes a difference. Thanks for posting.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    Well @Bruce_Butterfield‌ ....

    I 100% see how you came to your conclusion. I wanted to disagree and then after watching that video a few dozen times I was thinking there was something there and then TW posted.

    Speaking for the whole BallOfSpray editorial staff I can say we all look forward to anything you write.

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  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,071 Mega Baller
    @ Horton, wow, the "whole BallOfSpray editorial staff"? I guess that means you and Buford:)

    Thanks. Glad I could generate some good discussion and bring new ideas out.
    If it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.
    Horton
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,071 Mega Baller
    I received a PM question from another Baller and want to respond to the forum:

    “Seriously, though... you are suggesting that the boat wants to pull the skier out of connection, rotation, and down course. Thus, the skier has to do something to resist that. One of the "something"s that the skier can do is point the hips outbound and keep the handle connected by engaging the trailing arm to keep the handle connected and moving the inside hip forward. Right?”


    Exactly. The boat is always trying to pull the skier’s arms out and take away the connection – especially in the transition from the wakes to the buoy. There many different ways to resist the boat – it is going to win no matter what – we just try to minimize the boat’s margin of victory. Trying to rotate the hips out and keep the handle connected are the most effective ways.
    If it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.
    Horton
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    @Bruce_Butterfield‌
    this brings my back to my very poorly expressed idea about center of mass at the edge change.
    http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12166/conflicting-theories-about-center-of-mass-from-the-second-wake-to-the-ball

    Can I have too much outbound ..... (resistance)? Ok not me but could a skier have so much outbound force that it actually creates drag or (lord help me for saying this) inefficiency? For me this is all theoretically because I pretty clearly need to control the handle better when things get messy.

    On the other hand I used to pull the handle in going to my offside and I am sure it made me take a narrower path to the ball. I am thinking this is a whole other dynamic of badness.

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  • 6balls6balls Posts: 4,529 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I'm wondering if paying attention to keeping the inside elbow tight and possibly moving the elbow rearward while continuing hips outbound may kick some extra width.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,071 Mega Baller
    @ Horton, “Can I have too much outbound ..... (resistance)?” I don’t think so, but will give it some thought…..maybe Butterfield’s Third Law in the works :D

    “On the other hand I used to pull the handle in going to my offside and I am sure it made me take a narrower path to the ball. I am thinking this is a whole other dynamic of badness.” – Yes – pulling in will usually result in the outside shoulder moving toward the boat and hips dropping back. Just look at the FOG pics at the start of the thread!

    @6balls – yes, that’s it. Try to find the keys that work for you.
    If it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    edited December 2014
    @6balls Ok how? We all know and love the Butterfield Manifesto
    http://www.ballofspray.com/tech-articles/87-what-the-heck-is-handle-control

    So we all know that staying connected is critical. Connected is our direct line to the boat that is going down the lake at 34 or 36 mph. Again see the B.M. above.

    How does the direction that your pelvis is pointed make a difference? I am not saying it does not but if you think about the mechanics it is not obvious why it makes a difference. Are you thinking that you are going to twist the tip of the ski more out bound? Sounds wacky but I am listening.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly / DBSkis /   Denali / Eden Ski Lake  / Goode / HO Syndicate / MasterCraft / Masterline

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