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I found this very interesting.... Terry Winter transition

mrpreussmrpreuss Posts: 130 Baller
edited December 2014 in Classic Threads
Yes he is pulling himself up on the boat in the transition.
He is also getting into better position with more power with 2 hands.
Nate does it as well and it is most easily seen from the shoreline... It's there and it's clear if you are looking for it
JB used to make this a clear move too...
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Comments

  • DanEDanE Posts: 829 Crazy Baller
    edited November 2014
    What if it doesn't matter how you approach it?
    The 'lawnmower start' would be an easy thought process in the very short time frame the edge change occurs.
    If it makes you keep the load in the leading arm and counter your hips outbound it should be a good thing.
    Horton
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,991 Mega Baller
    I found that if I reverse the 60/40 load from my lead arm to the trailing arm after the work zone, I get much better runout width. Much easier to do when running on time or ahead. As soon as I fall behind, I overload my lead arm pressure, which ends up hurting width. The sensation of load can be felt in the hands and it is ever so slight on the handle, not necessarily needing to yank the handle with a side pull on the tailing arm. The ski and skier should be under less load when this happens.

    I think moving the shoulder back helps the hips to move, at least mine seem to move together.
    Sethski
  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 206 Baller
    Consciously trying to pull in or bend arms = bad idea from how I understand things - lots of bad things can happen :)
    Better keep arms straight and connected - hip movement and rolling chest into back arm to make the transition are actually "doable" and result in the arm bend that you see off the second wake from the pros.
    Hortonbishop8950
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,991 Mega Baller
    edited November 2014
    Transferring load into the trailing hand is good though at the transition, as it allows you to take full advantage of the width you created prior to it. Your lead arm should only be on the handle for balance and getting the shoulders leveled off at this point going into the turn . Any load on the lead arm and shoulder would pull you to a narrower path.
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,991 Mega Baller
    Chris Parrish in WSM 2012:

    Change your edge, not your position
    As you transition from your cutting edge to your turning edge, it’s crucial to keep a low anchor point close to your body. Instead of rocking forward through the edge change in an attempt to “prepare” for the turn, keep your handle close to your hips as you swing into your turning edge. It may feel like your weight is farther back as you near the turn, but by keeping your handle position consistent, you will continue to travel on a longer outward path and arrive at the buoy with more width.
    MarcoMISkier
  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 206 Baller
    Totally agree about the arm pressure once main load is off - it's at the point the line gets tight I lost you: no way either of my scrawny arms can pull itself in to create the effect you were pointing out. What works for me is, through the transition, giving a little movement of turning chest and hips towards the next bouy to advance the ski through and prepare for the turn.

    This video of JB is great to see just how straight your arms can be through the course.
    RichHorton
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,991 Mega Baller
    Awesome. When I freeze frame him just after the wakes, you can see how he has swung the ski out and behind the handle. He still maintains trailing arm pressure, but not "pulled" in like TW. Maybe this even sets the ski out wider? Good discussion, which was the intention of my initial posts in the RC thread.
  • DanEDanE Posts: 829 Crazy Baller
    If you read the original post by @Bruce_Butterfield in advanced topics he made a point that the move with the elbow is not pulling the handle in, more of a move pulling it back - big difference.
  • drewski32drewski32 Posts: 208 Baller
    edited November 2014
    The picture of TW looks like he is dealing with a lot of load off the second wake, and if he is pulling with one arm more than the other, it is probably the straight arm because he would have more leverage that way. Power is achieved through core movement; bending your arms to pull achieves NOTHING.
    Hortonbishop8950
  • mrpreussmrpreuss Posts: 130 Baller
    It's not just arms.
    It's a combination of swing, lower body, core, upper body and arms.
    It's dynamic and not a single "thing".
    It is there in varying techniques and motions in many skiers.
    It's about gaining width and position by adding power.
    It's about control of the line, handle and position.
  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,566
    The trailing arm bend is a result of a good transition coming off good angle, good stack and so on, I don't think its a conscious action. Its pretty much impossible to keep the handle close without the resulting inside arm bend. This is simply great handle control in action.
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' Boat 2005 Nautique 196 6L ZO - Ski: KD Platinum

  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,665 Administrator
    Many of us like to study the pros to see what we can learn. There is a ton of value in it. One thing I have learned in doing so is that we can draw speculative conclusions as to what they are thinking/doing and be completely wrong about it.

    Thank you @bishop8950‌

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    bishop8950MattPdrewski32
  • cragginshredcragginshred Posts: 685 Crazy Baller
    Great thread! A year ago I would not have understood 1/2 of it.
    Vapor pro 2017
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,321 Mega Baller
    @Mwetskier, a little clarification. I probably could have said it better, but what “looks like” him pulling the inside hand back, could easily be thrusting the inside hip forward. It is really more of a core rotation than a distinct arm or shoulder movement and there are many ways to describe it. A key piece of this is that the pressure on the leading arm needs to be maintained.

    I haven’t had the pleasure of getting coached by Terry, so I don’t know his thought process, but I will bet a beer that what I described is not what he is thinking about.
    If it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.
    AkBob
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,722 Mega Baller
    The anti-panda:
    image
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    ozski
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 3,976 Mega Baller
    @marcusbrown - physics Rocks! thanks for posting
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
    Horton
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,665 Administrator
    @MarcusBrown‌ who knew you were the voice of reason? I love you man.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Babes / Connelly / D3 / DBSkis / Goode / Hobe Lake / HO Syndicate / KD Skis  

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    DmaxJC_ski
  • twhispertwhisper Posts: 82 Open or 55K Rated Skier
  • twhispertwhisper Posts: 82 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    A couple shots to see how long the inside elbow stays close to the body. "OLD PHOTOS"
    Murrski
  • Deep11Deep11 Posts: 206 Baller
    This thread needs archiving somewhere special - to pulled out and read again and again and.......
    A_B
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,225 Mega Baller
    edited December 2014
    On behalf of skiers everywhere, thank you @twhisper‌ for regularly posting such great videos of your skiing for us to study, and thank you for chiming in here to set us straight on all our zealous speculation as to what your thinking is.

    I keep reading how we shouldn't study photos of the pros, assume that they are getting it right, or presume to understand what they are thinking. I understand these statements, but what is the alternative for the legions of us seeking a better game . . . especially in winter. Surely we're better off studying the pro's best efforts than nothing at all.

    I love watching your videos! They're a sterling example of efficient skiing and provide invaluable perspective when reviewing my own pylon videos. And for you to shine light on what you are doing as you have with this post is as good as it gets.

    Thank you, Terry. You are a class act!
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
    jdk99A_Bdrewski32DmaxJC_ski
  • jdk99jdk99 Posts: 83 Baller
    I just have to chime in and say what an amazing sport we have! Where the pros and experts are willing to jump in and share their thoughts with the mortals.

    @twhisper, @MarcusBrown, @sethski...thank you. Class acts indeed!

    As per @deep11, this thread and few that preceded it will be preseason/offseason/inseason reading for me for years to come.

    http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12177/edge-change-transition-question-help-needed
    http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12186/the-reverse-c
    http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12230/i-found-this-very-interesting
    http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/12232/i-found-this-very-interesting-terry-winter-transition

    @Horton, two thumbs up for a phenomenal site.

  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,233 Mega Baller
    "You've got to load up on enough speed and angle into the wakes, and then from the centerline out be able to utilize it and allow it to swing you out to max width."

    "Lean like hell and build some load into the first wake."

    Terry - thanks for confirming that I haven't been completely wrong about my skiing for the past 35 years.

    and lastly - "As the ski has initiated its swing and is directly underneath your upper body then alleviate the pressure on the ski's cutting edge by allowing the knees to lift towards your chest."

    How much do you think that you make this knee/ski release happen vs. it just happening as a result of your angle and position at the centerline?
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
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