When you look up the word smear as it relates to waterskiing, you should see this.

WishWish Posts: 7,724 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
The term has been tossed out a lot on BOS. Sometimes I think terms like this get confusing and difficult to visualize. This pic screamed smear when I saw it. Not a fan to the term but it seams to have stuck.
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>>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
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Comments

  • BulldogBulldog Posts: 1,005 Crazy Baller
    @Wish very cool image!
    Mike Loeffler - "Someone somewhere is having a real problem today...My bad skiing is NOT one of them"
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    @wish actually I do not think that is what @Chris Rossi‌ is talking about. I "think" when he talks about it he is specifically talking about "oversteer" (my words) before the ball not after.

    I had @Colebrah‌ working on smear a few weeks ago when he did it he was like "holy crap what is that?"

    Anyway that is a cool shot.
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    bishop8950
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,329 Mega Baller
    i misspelled it ' schmear ' and this is what popped up -


    ozskiBrady
  • WishWish Posts: 7,724 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Horton‌ agreed
    .

    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Bill22Brady
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    I've seen skiers do this and it is really different from the boat. They get the ski "smearing" before the ball and it looks like it is already turned inbound before they get there (tip pointing in, tail out). Then magically the tip slides right past the ball and the ski starts running cross course. Pretty cool.
    Jim Ross
  • ColeGiacopuzziColeGiacopuzzi Posts: 413 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I'll be totally honest the first time I read the article I didn't really understand fully. Like @Horton‌ said he mentioned it a few weeks back to me while I was skiing, and broke it down a little more in depth. I'll tell you, when you do it you know it. Made the pass feel easier at the backside of the buoy and felt earlier and wider. Can't wait to really be able to focus on it in the spring.
    Brady
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,359 Mega Baller
    Ya know, ya'd think "go around these 6 buoys" would be simpler than this.

    Kinda awesome that it isn't. Can anybody try to tell me what actual moves they do to cause this "pre-pre-turn" if you will?
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    9400Keith MenardMJ1
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,788 Mega Baller
    Truth is that unless you are perfectly flat and on top of the ski, there is always some amount of "smear". There is "smear" while crossing the wakes. The boat pulls your ski down course while you point it cross course and your actual path is in between. I wonder how much of that displaced water is due to depth vs. smear.

    Anyway, it is a very cool picture.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    SkiJaychris_logan
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,056 Mega Baller
    THIS MAKES AN AWESOME SCREENSAVER!
    Brady
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    edited December 2014
    Colebrah‌ can you find a link to the original @Chris Rossi‌ text and post it for @Than_Bogan‌?

    @ToddL‌ that might be the most profound thing you have ever written.

    @MattP‌ I really need the sarcasm font. When will it be a reality?
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  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,056 Mega Baller
    My new screen saver:


    SkiJayJJVDMZN
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    edited December 2014
    My understanding of smear is that its a term used to describe a ski behavior more than it refers to any specific location like during the pre-turn. I know that Rossi has used it to describe getting the ski to smear/slide/drift/rotate before the ball, but the ski is still smearing after the ball.

    Smear is used in snow skiing too. Racers do everything they can to avoid letting the ski smear. Now that powder skis are all fat and floatie, smearing wide of rocks and trees has become fairly standard big mountain technique. But while both snow and water skis smear, how they smear is quite different. On snow skis, smear is mostly controlled by technique. On a water ski, smear is largely controlled by fin and binding setup.




    not my labling, straight from snow skiing page
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  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,764 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Brett Hodgekins. Skier from the UK who was working for Cory the first time I ever went there. Good skier with a bad back. One of my favorite pics!
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    edited December 2014
    @jayski – no I totally disagree

    I guess if your bindings are way back and your fin is deep & long it is going to impact smear but with a normally set up ski it about skier input (technique). The ultra short version of what I think @Chris Rossi‌ said is “by moving forward aggressively right after the edge change the tail of the ski will smear wide of the direction of travel”. The result is the ski will have started to pivot before the apex. This means the ski has to change direction less at the finish to get the desired angle.

    Rossi punctuated this with elbows handle yadda yadda yadda.
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  • DWDW Posts: 1,973 Mega Baller
    Slip angle would be the terminology I would apply to the condition.
    MattPWaternutWishMCskiFreak
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,788 Mega Baller
    I like the Captain Obvious moments. They are fun.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,056 Mega Baller
    Gotta like @SkiJay‌ 's waterskier example!
  • wtrskiorwtrskior Posts: 704 Crazy Baller
    A ski in water will wash away, its not on a rail like a ski on snow/ice.

    I agree 100% with @SkiJay‌ in his notion of this being how the ski reacts vs physical movement.

    Ive held off posting for a while because frankly I feel the topics are getting further and further away from what you actually want to think about.

    Take a read of @twhisper‌ posts and you'll notice he talks about very "basic" or fundamental ideas and movements, not complicated or unknown ideas like this.

    I'd doubt that many a top skier thinks about this. Skiing is about riding a ski and the movements or lack thereof that get you from 1 side of the boat to the other most efficienrly as possible.

    Be careful over analyzing things.
    HortonWishMattP
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,788 Mega Baller
    edited December 2014
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    davemac
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,488 Mega Baller
    I haven't stopped rolling my eyes ever since I first read about a purposeful smear before the buoy. Sorry, but a whole 747 of pandas dropped on my lap that day. Now they're back.
    I definitely respect his knowledge and accomplishments, but this concept is IN-sane. Please don't compare it to ski racing. Just...please...
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
    Horton
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    edited December 2014
    @Drago‌ I agree that is it mostly misunderstood but if you look at exactly what @Chris Rossi‌ is advocating it works pretty well. Does it translate to snow skiing? Hell I do not know.

    It is more like the way I imagine driving a race car (something I have never done). The driver enters the corner with a little over steer and lets the back wheels come around just enough before the apex and then with a little throttle he transfers some weight to the back wheels and steers out of the corner. ( @DW feel free to tell me this is a terrible misunderstanding of race cars)

    On a slalom ski the feeling i get is pretty subtle but bitchen when I do it right. Basically you let the boat pull your forward through edge change (again check Rossi's text for correct details) and then you feel the tail just slightly flow away from the direction of path as you approach max width.

    Is it an illusion? I have no idea but the turn that follows is generally better than normal. Ask @Colebrah‌
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  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    @AdamCord‌ Oooo fine say the same thing I said but clearer. Go change a diaper or something.
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  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,329 Mega Baller
    @Jimbrake -at least once a season i experience ' stivot ' in the slalom course -i think. its always off side -either 3 or 5 ball usually 5 -and always a surprise i could not replicate it if i tried. i do know that it happens when i'm a little fast at the ball and also may be a little narrow. also it has only happened at a longer line typically -28 '.

    what it feels like is almost exactly the feeling you have on a trick ski when you slightly un weight your tail and *snap* the ski into a side slide -that is you actually feel like you've *locked* the ski at 90 degrees to the wake. if you never trick skied then you dont know what that feels like but thats how this ' stivot ' thing feels. its almost like a ' hockey stop ' but without the stop part.

    the *result* is the ski instantly heads toward the other side of the course with a lot of speed and virtually no load. in fact i couldnt take a load if i wanted to because it happens really quick and i didn't know it was going to happen so all i can do is hang on in whatever goofy semi -stack i happen to have at the time.

    what it reminds of if i could see myself from the boat is a carnival shooting gallery where the metal duck is going sideways on a conveyor belt and if you shoot one it instantly turns a 180 and heads the other way. when i describe it to the boat crew they are unaware of any thing different happening except that i made the pass.

    what seems to make it happen is i feel late and instinctively try to turn the ski across course as instantly as possible. theres no sense of carving and theres definitely a feeling of the tail washing out but that doesnt happen and i end up on the other side in great shape to finish the pass. oddly i can never decide if it a good thing to try to develop or if i just narrowly dodged a bullet.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    @mwetskier I do not know what a stivot is but I pretty sure that is not what @Chris Rossi‌ means by smear and it sounds like a bad thing to me.
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  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    edited December 2014
    Smear is just a synonym for drift, slide, loose, rotation, slip, etc. Cars do it, planes do it, snow skis do it, and even motorcycles do it. I know this because I've engineered and raced all of these things. It's not a skiing technique that anyone needs to work on just because Chris used the term to describe what he wants the ski to do while approaching the ball. It's a ski behavior, not a skier behavior.

    You can get the ski to smear more by engaging more tip or by forcing the tail around with the back leg (edit: which is bad), but consider smear more a byproduct of good technique than a technique in itself. It's tuned using DFT, FD, and binding settings and just occurs as it should with a good setup and sound water skiing skills.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
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  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,225 Administrator
    edited December 2014
    engaging more tip or by forcing the tail around with the back leg
    No. I do not believe there is any forcing the tail anywhere. It is the result of being more forward sooner.

    smear is a byproduct of far more important technique considerations, not a technique in itself yes yes yes
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  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    I didn't mean to imply that there is anything good about rear leg forcing, only that it's one of the ways for a skier to make a ski smear. Moving forward to engage more tip, on the other hand, is legit. Smear increases with roll angle too, assuming there's enough tip engaged.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent

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