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I hate to start another smear / side slip /slide thread but this image is very cool

HortonHorton Posts: 27,615 Administrator
edited December 2014 in News & Other Stuff

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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,615 Administrator
    @adamcord see anything interesting about the spray at the tail of Manon's ski?
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  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,329 Mega Baller
    @Horton -not @adamcord but i bet that tail spray is a leaky fin block.
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,329 Mega Baller
    edited December 2014
    oh goody a thread about smear thats not too advanced for me. i think this photo from waterskis on line mag illustrates what i think * smear * is better than any i've seen. notice the track showing unmistakable tail slide well before the buoy and last half of the turn -



    photo is on line here - http://www.waterskimag.com/olgallery/58930/58945
    SkiJay
  • WishWish Posts: 7,795 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Right at 18 seconds you can see it in motion. And if anyone has a way to slow motion it..all the better.
    .
    .
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 728 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @‌Horton are you asking about the water moving through the fin slot? What I see there looks pretty normal and won't have a big effect on the ski. What is interesting is that it looks like there might be a bevel transition on that ski at the toes of the back foot. Something is causing that spray pattern. Also the water coming off the tail is completely turbulent. That's not particularly abnormal, it's just cool note (the flow past the fin/tail is NOT laminar). The flow off the left side of the ski for the most part IS laminar.

    Ok I'll say one thing about "smear". Now the ski is ALWAYS sliding, so it isn't a question of is the ski smearing or not, it's a question of how much and when. If I understood what Rossi was originally talking about, it was the idea that the ski rotates (smears, washes, slides, whatever) to the point that the tail is wider than your feet when you reach the ball. This is mostly a function of position relative to the boat, and the speed it took to get there. It is not about shoving the tail out. If you're coming into the ball late and narrow, the ski will still be pointing outbound as you come to the ball. If you get high on the boat early, you're already falling back on the boat when you reach the ball, and there is more time for the ski to rotate before the ball. Nate is the king of this and that's a big part of why his turns look so relaxed compared to most other skiers. He doesn't have to rotate the ski as much at the ball.
    SkiJayWish
  • dchristmandchristman Posts: 1,089 Mega Baller
    It looks to me like maybe there's an SFE on the left side of the ski.
    Is it time to ski, yet?
    SkiJay
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    I was thinking Side Force Enhancer too @dchristman‌. The disturbance is pretty abrupt and in exactly the right spot for an SFE.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,615 Administrator
    I will bet any of you a case of scotch that Manon is not using an SFE
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  • dchristmandchristman Posts: 1,089 Mega Baller
    So not an SFE, a new FSE from MC - the French Side Enhancer, built into the mold? :)
    Is it time to ski, yet?
  • dchristmandchristman Posts: 1,089 Mega Baller
    Not LFF RFF specific - look at the line in the spray off the right side. Looks to be more than a bevel transition as @AdamCord‌ suggested, but what do I know.
    Is it time to ski, yet?
  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 728 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited December 2014
    You would be amazed what a small bevel change will do to the spray pattern.

    There's definitely no SFE or any other contraption on that ski.
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,295 Mega Baller
    Could it be buckles on her front hard shell dragging? I hate that about hardshells. Drag, grab, etc.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
    SkiJayBrady
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 1,119 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited December 2014
    @jimbrake I bet that's it

    @horton I love that pic. Tells you a lot about how a ski works.
  • WishWish Posts: 7,795 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I would love to know if my buckles drag. I cannot feel if they do but cannot say they don't. Would make for a great picture if it could be captured.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • thagerthager Posts: 4,549 Mega Baller
    @Horton is a putz. That's a smear I can prove! : )
    Stir vigorously then leave!
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,615 Administrator
    edited December 2014
    @wish I know for sure that ill advised carp crap on your boots will for sure catch water. The Radar boots from a few years ago had a flap that goes over your fore foot. I cut it off and did a crap job once. I left what amounted to a scoop on my boot. There is no question that it caught water and made the ski drag at apex. (the fix was easy but the lesson was clear.)

    Now if buckles catch water and make a difference I do not know.
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  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,615 Administrator
    My guess is if we saw a lot of shots from this angle we would see similar spray patterns.
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  • teammalibuteammalibu Posts: 793 Crazy Baller
    @Horton keep the carp off your bindings!!
    Mike Erb Cedar Ridge Canton Miss.
    Horton is my hero
    thagerMattP
  • DmaxJC_skiDmaxJC_ski Posts: 346 Solid Baller
    Kinda off topic a bit on this but who notices the shadow in the spray just off the toes of Manons back foot? That's a pretty significan "m" in the spray, just thought I'd throw that out there. A bit ironic I thought.
  • JASJAS Posts: 249 Solid Baller
    Cool picture. Also gives me a great visual of why shoulder rotation toward wake and early loading puts you on tail of your ski.
  • DefectiveDaveDefectiveDave Posts: 479 Solid Baller
    Based on the width of the channel made by the ski at the ball, he was already well into his turn at the ball. It must have felt like he backsided it even though he's already 10 ft down course and hasn't yet hooked up. It really shows you how much you're moving down course even when everything is working like it should.

    @Horton, what is the line length?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,615 Administrator
    edited December 2014
    @DefectiveDave‌ first so all - if we are talking about the first image in this thread "He" is a pretty young French woman who looks like this

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    IlivetoskiozskiWish
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,615 Administrator
    edited December 2014
    @DefectiveDave‌ Second - part of what is interesting about this image is that you can not see the orientation of the course. I think she did back side the ball is early and is not really down course but from this angle I think it is impossible to tell. There is no way to tell the line length. For a photo shoot I would guess 32 off (ish).

    If you are saying that we are all going down course more than we think then I would say you are right on target.

    If I am correct about the way I see this image - the fact that she appears to not be hooked is a credit to her skills. She is one of the best female skiers in the world.
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  • DefectiveDaveDefectiveDave Posts: 479 Solid Baller
    @Horton,

    Ughhhh, now I feel like an asshole. I know there are so many great female skiers and I still immediately assume it's a dude when I don't recognize a name.

    Anyway, it's a great photo and to me it looks like she's absolutely smashing the turn. That being said she still slides a lot in the water and goes somewhat down course despite being an amazing skier. It seems like a function of ski geometry more than anything else. The ski can only sink so much and therefore the water it can displace is limited, thus slowing the transfer of momentum which allows the skier to turn. I don't think that the sliding is reducing her cross-course velocity, but I do think it is reducing her space before each buoy somewhat. At the line length in the photo I'm sure it's a non-issue, but surely at 39.5 and 41 off every little bit counts.

    Why not design skis to sink deeper in the turns and reduce the distance lost down course? Could it be a balancing act, maybe the features needed to make a ski turn on a dime reduce cross-course velocity? Based on Manon's balance and composure in that image I'm sure she could easily handle a more aggressive turn.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,615 Administrator
    @DefectiveDave don't feel bad. You gave me an excuse to post a picture of her without looking like a lecher.
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    bishop8950Wish
  • kstateskierkstateskier Posts: 524 Solid Baller
    @Horton just smeared @DefectiveDave‌. Pun intented!
    KStateSkier
    Bradley Beach - Lone Rock Ski Club, Missouri
    2004 Malibu Response LXI, 2014 D3 Helix 66"
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