Advanced Stack? Get forward?

HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
edited January 2015 in Advanced Topics
I look at pictures of my own skiing and I am stacked. My body is aligned but honestly I am back. My stack is predictive of my score. I think guys who run 38 have to be pretty stacked but the guys who run 39 are stacked AND forward.

I have heard stories about Nate A) To stay forward he has is back heel off the ski everywhere except from the white water to the center line B ) that he has taken out the front falls at the wakes trying to get farther forward through the wakes.

I see TW with his knees driven way forward and I simply cannot relate. I see Greg Badal ski and I do not know what the hell he is doing but his center of mass is forward. Mapple same. Asher and CP do not look crazy in any way they are very centered. Don’t get me started on T-Gas. Jeff Rogers is a model I can think about but there a lot I still do not understand.

If there is one subject in slalom skiing that I have no freak’n idea about this is it. Ok Advanced guys – How do you think about getting from simply aligned to forward?

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Comments

  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,417 Mega Baller
    Tough one. When I'm working at it, I try to think about it in slightly different terms than "getting forward". Like you, sometimes my stack is because my shoulders and COM are back. It's easy on the body, but not efficient. Jody Fisher used to tell me the front foot is the accelerator, the back foot the brake. He actually said that even on my pull out I should feel like I'm falling forward, not leaning out/back.

    So, back to the problem at hand. For me to be forward, I have to think about moving my entire body across as one rather than connecting and stacking back at the conclusion of the turn. If I do that, then I'm pushing forward into my front foot when I get the handle, and then just stay there through the wakes.

    It is weird though. Old habits and it just feels safer to be back. Honestly, it is a little like downhill skiing to me. I know I should drive forward into the bindings, but that means if I fall I go down the hill and take a beating. However, if I stay back then when I fall I slide onto my butt and it doesn't hurt. I think the same natural tendency to avoid pain manifests in slalom.
    Jim Ross
    Horton
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 889 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited January 2015
    re-posting and adding:

    One thing I am working on and only achieve on my best days, is to lead slightly with my body. Most of my energy is focused on leveraging directly against the boat so it doesn't pull me up. If that is working I try to move forward so I feel like my body is trying to move ahead of my feet slightly. The feeling is that as I am nearing max acceleration and the first wake I am trying to shift my weight in the direction I am going. In the photo is like I am leaning to the skier’s right. I tried to illustrate with the red line being what I think it would look like if I were straight away from the boat and the yellow lines showing where most of my energy is focused and where I am also trying to move right.

    Back to dry land for a different view on this: If I am leaning straight away from a pole while holding a handle I will feel the red vector. If I try to move forward into the yellow vectors I will fall down on dry land because my feet will not move with me. So to simulate the dry land version of moving forward I would need someone pushing back on my right arm (assuming same direction as the photo) to keep me from falling down. This is also how it feels on the water. When I move forward behind the boat its not like I am going to fall out the front or out the side. Its like there is resistance that I am moving into as I lean in that direction and it supports me as I apply pressure. I like describing what I feel first and understand the physics second (or never). I hope that makes sense, it would be easier to explain with a video if I had the time.

    Marcus or other true experts may say that you want to be right over your feet or organized differently that I am saying and I would trust them! It may be that the feeling of leading with my body in reality just gets me into the right spot. All I know is that it feels right when I do it!

    cragginshredEd_Johnsonwtrskior
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    @MarcusBrown‌ I dare you

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  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 889 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @horton corrected, thanks
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    @bishop8950‌ do you feel like the requires more strength? I am sure I need to work on this but the few times i have toyed with it seemed sort of freaky.

    When you say move forward do you think of COM forward or anything like that?

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  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 889 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @horton I don't think extra fitness is a prerequisite. As @skijay said in another thread a clean finish to the prior turn is. At the finish of the turn and as I settle into my leverage against the boat it's like there is a moment where I know I am balance and stacked and ready to accelerate. As I squeeze into the load I also think about being over my feet and moving forward. I feel awareness of my hips and upper body and try to move both forward a bit. So yes it must be a COM thing but sometimes I am more focused on pressing my leading shoulder in the direction I am going. In both cases I feel more weight on my front foot as a result but I don't know if pressing on your front foot would work.

    I tried to illustrate with the length of the yellow lines most of my energy is just to stay leveraged and a smaller portion is focused on moving forward to at least be right over my feet and I think it's even better when I am leading slightly. The times I lead I feel more over my ski through the edge change, I end up with more reverse C and more space. I think most of us know when we are too far back. Some of us know when we are neutral and get there often. Leading slightly is one of the newer things for me and critical at 39. Pretty much if I fall back anywhere in that pass I am done.

    You can feel this on the pull out and turn in for the gate because there is less going on at that point in the pass. Every single gate I take I pay attention to where I was through the transition and edge change. Was I over my feet and move out to one ball or did I fall back and get pulled up over my ski into one ball?
    ZmanThan_BoganSkoot1123
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 222 Open or 55K Rated Skier


    Incorporating both forward & cross-course components to the lean is necessary to minimize drag and maximize lift and work with the system rather then against it. While not at all hard, this "position" is nearly impossible to get without previously executing a continuous chain of fairly simple dynamic actions. Trying to "lean forward" is a good recipe for a strong OTF.
    WishMuskokaKy
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    edited January 2015
    @adamhcaldwell‌ Thank you Captain Obvious. I Love You Man but its not helpful to tell me that I have to do some things not to crash.

    Could you shed some general light on the concepts that you think are key? What are the "continuous chain of fairly simple dynamic actions"?

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    Mikl525
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    Ok @adamhcaldwell‌ you now have my interest. I have a LOT of questions but here are 2.

    What is the difference between wide and high on the boat.

    You said "the boat is in a position to support them as they begin to load the line". Can you expound in this?

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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,652 Mega Baller
    This thread seems really insightful, but I kinda hate it anyhow. I'm a bit on the old side for techniques that can lead to extra OTFs while you're trying to learn them properly.

    Thoughts on how to add this incrementally and safely?
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    Horton
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 222 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @‌ Than_Bogan ...Free skiing is always huge...or skiing/talking with someone who understands it completely. Just go easy and move at your own pace, working at line lengths/speeds you feel very comfortable at.

    In reality, the more you start to put yourself in a position to work with the system rather then against it the drag/pressure on the ski is reduced, the load on the body is reduced (or at least your in a physical position to handle it better), and the likelihood of an OTF goes WAY down.

    I intentionally did not included a lot of "how to's"... I think trying to mix "movements" with "new concepts" to early can be dangerous in a discussion like this...


  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 889 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I may not have explained this correctly because I have never felt like I was close to an OTF when I was working on this
    adamhcaldwellThan_Bogan
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,417 Mega Baller
    Last summer I told myself that I needed to get high enough on the boat to be uncomfortable. Seems a gradual approach doesn't help me break the old habits. Being uncomfortable means I'm in a totally different place than normal and that works for me.
    Jim Ross
    ski6jonesToddLkstateskier
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 889 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Thanks @brooks! Interestingly to me I find this easier to do on my offside lean. My offside turn and lean have better than my onside for a few years. So maybe I am just in a better position to move forward. Or could it be something about the structure of your stack when it's offside?
  • brooksbrooks Posts: 147 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @bishop8950‌ engaging your front foot is definitely easier on your offside pull but connecting your hips is harder. Your picture shows good connection and front foot engagement. I dig it. Onside is the other way, easier to connect hips but harder to engage over your feet.
    bishop8950wtrskior
  • brooksbrooks Posts: 147 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @bishop8950‌ Also, skied with a guy Daren two weeks ago that said he skied with you before. He's in capitola and looking to find a course close, message me if you know any places.
  • WishWish Posts: 6,808 Mega Baller
    Have not read the thread carefully but will add this. Do to back recovery, I am not chasing buoys. But, I have spent the last 4 sets, 8 passes each, riding in a lean/stacked position keeping outside the buoy line and held full length of the course both directions at 28 off 26mph on a wide ride ski. Gave me lots of time to assess weight distribution. The more weight forward, the wider the I got and further up on the boat. Clearing the buoys by 2-3 feet was not a problem, hard as hell to hold that long but not a problem. Let the weight go slightly more on the back foot and the ski would slow noticeably and drift in and back making it very hard to stay outside the buoy line if at all. Having even weight on both feet was also noticeably less efficient then having more weight on the front foot. It's been interesting to say the least.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    RichardDoanejimbrake
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