Chief Judge

lpskierlpskier Posts: 1,818 Mega Baller
May a chief judge be an event judge in an L tournament sanctioned by AWSA/USAWS? Why or why not. If your answer deviates from the rules and includes a discussion of policy or interpretation, please provide the source of the policy or interpretation.
John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly

Comments

  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    No. A chief judge of s class L tournament may not be an event judge at an AWSA sanctioned tournament.

    Rule 15.01of the AWSA rule book states that "a class L or R tournament must meet or exceed the rules in the IWWF rule book." Furthermore the tournament must be sanctioned by the Pan Am region of the IWWF and USA Waterski.

    Rule 6.01 of the IWWF rule book specifically says "The chief judge, who may not be an event judge..."

    The "exception" would be any event at an AWSA sanctioned tournament which is run as a class C (or F/X). Then the CJ could serve as an event judge.

    Now based on the way you phrased the question, I'm thinking you have an opposing opinion....

    Cross examine the witness counselor?
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    HortonJohn Brooks
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 3,912 Mega Baller
    the CJ has the responsibility of managing all the officials during the event, so can't be distracted by sitting in a tower, riding in the boat, etc.
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 944 Crazy Baller
    If the tournament is sanctioned as a Class ELR (or a Class C along with the L/R), then the chief judge could be an event judge for the Class C or E portions of the tournament, but not the L or R portions of the tournament.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,287 Historical Baller
    That question came up at a tournament in FL last weekend. Of course, with skiers who are also
    judges, thanks to their Open rating and a bit of work/testing, Florida has plenty of judges. In
    the remote regions of the US, that could be a problem, although L/R events are rare up there.

    One onsite comment was that in the case of a protest, review, etc., the CJ would need to be
    available and not working as an event judge.
  • jrsjrs Posts: 95 Baller
    NO! The chief judge is the final vote in many situations and can not be an event judge for L or R.
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 1,818 Mega Baller
    What about these thoughts:
    1. AWSA rule 15.05 specifically allows a chief judge to be an event judge in an E tournament. An E tournament is no more complicated (except, apparently, for rule interpretation) than an L for a CJ, so I think that fact negates the argument that the CJ needs to be available as a manager. Depending on what you have for judges and video, the tie breaker argument may or may not be applicable.
    2. IWWF rule 6.01 applies specifically to the World Championships. The only portion of the rule that could possibly apply to an L sanctioned for slalom only by AWSA/USAWS is the one sentence that says CJ may not be an event judge. Why cherry pick one sentence from an otherwise inapplicable rule? At Worlds, Pan Ams, etc., there is no overlap between officials and athletes. You have lots of judges and drivers and none of them have to worry about their turn on the start dock. There is overlap at a local L. Disallowing the CJ from acting as an event judge wastes a resourse, and places additional judging burdens on the other athlete/officials, and may require that the tournament come to a halt if a judge needs to be relieved to ski, warm up, go to the john, gets hurt, needs to eat or leave early, leaving the event with less than the minimum available event judges.
    3. AWSA rule 1.01(d) specifically says that in an L, if the AWSA rule differs from the IWWF rule, you apply the IWWF rule where it effects the skiing conditions and the AWSA rule where it bears on administration. Since AWSA rule 15.05 specifically allows the CJ to be an event judge in an E record tournament, which differs (perhaps) from IWWF rule 6.01 (which in my view is inapplicable to a slalom only L sanctioned by other than the IWWF), and since the difference does not affect the skiing conditions and is rather administrative in nature, rule 1.01 trumps 6.01, you therefor apply AWSA rule 15.05 and let the CJ act as an event judge.

    That's my logic and conclusion, but I am in a district minority not on. Thoughts?

    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    eleeskijayski
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @lpskier I like your thinking and would generally agree with your comments except the entire IWWF rule book is written to run and administer the Worlds (several derivatives). Also, the text is pretty much a long run on sentence so getting to virtually any specific "rule" requires the reader to look at individual sentences and phrases (assuming you can find the relevant text).

    I completely agree with the idea of wasting a resource if the CJ can't be an event judge. However in slalom the CJ can be a review judge so, depending on the review policy for that tournament, that can be a busy job.

    One last thing, as CJ for many E/LR tournaments over the years, I typically spend a lot of time making sure things are running smoothly, skiers are happy, finding the TC for this or that, dealing with scoring, finding the next group of officials, etc. So sitting on a tower or in a boat is likely not the best use of my time anyway.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    RichardDoane
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,287 Historical Baller
    Note that the Chief Judge is also given several duties for the Tricks event. See IWWF Rule 15.12.
  • thompjsthompjs Posts: 511 Baller
    @klindy Especially a two lake tournament. Plus if I'm TC you know I'm hiding somewhere.
    John BrooksklindyMattP
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @thompjs I was thinking of you when I typed my previous reply. :)
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
  • John BrooksJohn Brooks Posts: 270 Crazy Baller
    @lpskier @Edbrazil @klindy A little off topic from the original question, but I have been wondering why do we need to sanction events through IWWF? Is there any real benefit? I understand that for the Open skiers , they have a desire to post to the elite list and in the event they ski at a level for a recognized world record, that would be one more stamp of approval. Does the elite list bring them any economic incentives? When I look at the AWSA rules for that level of event, one that has higher standards than a Class C, the AWSA rules fairly well cover everything. The IWWF guidelines seem to not really add any value, make rule interpretations more complicated and add to the expense of an event. Just a little thought for conversation. Thanks.
    livie
  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,879 Moderator
    @John Brooks There is a difference in the Elite List and the IWWF World Ranking List. L/R sanctioned events go on the IWWF World Ranking list if the scores meet the minimum requirement. Elite List is based on Pro Events with the required amount of prize money and that creates points etc for the Elite list. The World List is used for many reasons one being the ability to ski World Championships (Open, Jr, U21 & +35).
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,034 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    Now I have to work more!

    Can I judge myself? >:)

    Eric
    jayskibassfooter
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @lpskier is there a link to the IWWF rule changes?
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 1,818 Mega Baller
    @klindy Hey Keith: it’s buried in the minutes from the 9/3-4/17 meeting on the IWWF home page. I emailed you the link. It is not in the revisions to Rule 6.01. It is in the discussion of conflicts. I’ll email you an interesting email chain as well.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    klindytdusin
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @lpskier thanks John.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,053 Crazy Baller
    Who and how did this get fixed. Someone post the recipe. The process of fixing IWWF has seemed impossible
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 1,818 Mega Baller
    @disland Check out the September 2017 meeting minutes on the IWWF web page. Its around page 14.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @disland as @lpskier mentioned there are several "bulleted" topics and explanations/changes in the minutes. I wasn't at the meeting but that implies topics were included on the agenda, discussed and some decision made.

    This particular issue however, whether a CJ can be an event judge, doesn't seem to have had any changes made to it. The explanation I got (along with several others) was that rule 6.01 which states that a CJ may not be an event judge applies only to a World Champs and not a "world record" or "ranking list" tournament. Seems odd since that's the protocol we've been working with for years and years and no one ever thought to clarify or correct anyone. Frustrating for sure!
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,053 Crazy Baller
    fubar
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    RichardDoaneWaterSkier12
Sign In or Register to comment.

Not sure how to deal with a long link?