Conversation with Adam Cord 4/3/16

HortonHorton Posts: 23,512 Administrator
Adam: So how you skiing
Horton: meh. Ok but not as wide and early as I want
Adam: Take some fin away. Take out depth and length.
Horton: No I am just not as centered as I should be. It is not the ski
Adam: Just take out some depth
Horton: No Adam. It is not the ski. I need to work on me
Adam: You should really adjust your fin. I am sure the problem is not your skiing
Horton: Very funny. No. I am working on my gate and being centered. I also want to carry more speed out of On Side. I need to be more smooth
Adam: Why don’t you put a washer under your fin block on your On Side to smooth that out.
Horton: Darn that sounds like fun…. Ok I will do it.

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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,512 Administrator
    edited April 2016
    So I DID NOT measure anything. I unscrewed my fin block, slid small washer under the middle screw hole on the left side of the fin block and screwed everything back down. The result was not wild different but I have to say my On Side turns were a lot more flowing. It was the best ride so far this year. I shortened to 35 for only the 3rd time since my injury and ran 3 in a row.

    This concept is for sure interesting.

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  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,046 Mega Baller
    The next step is to keep the washer on the left and put another one, twice as thick, under the front screw on the right side. That will make your offside just as flowy as the inside. I was flat amazed at the effect. Subtle, but definitely an improvement.
    If it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.
    adamhcaldwelljipster43
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,512 Administrator
    @Bruce_Butterfield please please please tell me you think it's till April 1st. You're joking right?

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  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 179 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Starts to make you think about all those skis you can only tune to be good on one side or the other.... Very likely there was a miss-allocation of fin area that was NOT working in your favor, no matter what D/L/DFT adjustments were made.
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,046 Mega Baller
    @horton, no it's April 4th. We are just starting to experiment with this, so I probably shouldn't have mentioned it yet. You just need to think about how the fin dynamics affect each side differently and it will make sense.

    Why does LE have a dominant effect on the offside while D and DFT have a dominant effect on the onside? It's a very similar phenomenon.

    The washer in the middle on the left is effectively changing D only on the onside while leaving D unchanged for the offside. The thicker wash on the front on the right is effectively changing LE only on the offside.
    If it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,512 Administrator
    @Bruce_Butterfield I hear you but I am going to try to forget we ever had this conversation.

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    Wish
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 179 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Bruce_Butterfield, for me personally, I've not needed to consider the length adjustment on the opposite side. As the ski is deflected below the middle of the fin block, you are getting a reduction of surface area over the entire length of the fin, not only at the deepest part of the fin where we measure. Its deflection will be at a maximum where the jacking screw is located, and at a minimum at the ends of the fin slot. Area reduction is not isolated to where we measure depth only.

    Taking that into consideration, adjusting the length with washers on opposite side doesn't seem necessary, and to be done effectively, would require running a longer fin slot to get deflection under the front screw, which then starts to impact torsional stiffness, which could be good, or bad.

    Using the Denali Fin Area Tuning system simplifies life tremendously. Dial in the settings for a stong toe-side turn, and then crank down on the set screw to reduce overall area on the heel-side turn comes alive.

    Since @AdamCord and I ride a new ski nearly every set, and constantly playing with settings, we run a thumb screw installed so its possible to reach down at the end of a pass and make moves on the fly.

    Most of us consistently run 20-30K delta between depth measurements side to side.
    CaleBurdickjipster43
  • ktm300ktm300 Posts: 362 Baller
    Sho nuff my onside was deeper than the off by 5. I have never even thought about this. I put the smallest washer I had in and got a 15/1000 reduction in depth onside. How shallow an onside are you finding is acceptable? Before the washer my depth was 2.450 (shallow by traditional notions) Now 2.435 (I have never had a fin this shallow) I want to try the idea but I don't have time to re-invent the wheel. Please give some guidance as to the acceptable ranges. Thanks!!
    DanE
  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 460 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @ktm300 there's no issue with 2.435. I have gone as far as 2.410 on the shallow side when playing with long/shallow settings.
  • WishWish Posts: 6,742 Mega Baller
    Yeeup.. A washer convert. How nobody thought of this before is beyond me. Smart guys those Adams...and that's just with a washer.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • rfarfa Posts: 204 Baller
    Just curious...is that section of the ski sufficiently "elastic" so that it will not deform once/if the washer comes off. Thank you
    Rui Afonso
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 179 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @rfa A ski is basically a big leaf spring. Its fine to push it 20-40/1000s over a 6" span. No need to go beyond that.
    CaleBurdick
  • gmutgmut Posts: 191 Baller
    Well back in the day Andy used washers under the screws of his fixed fins to change the performance characteristics of his skis.
    trishel41
  • WishWish Posts: 6,742 Mega Baller
    edited April 2016
    @gmut i think a lot of us did that but it was usually to change the fin equally on both sides in terms of changing depth and length and little else. Until the Adams, I'm not sure anyone has tried to change the surface area differently on each side of the fin. Even D3s Rocker Block displaced both sides equally.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    pumpinpete
  • ALPJrALPJr Posts: 1,311 Crazy Baller
    I would be shocked if it hadn't been done in some ways before. BLP, KLP Mapple, Syderhoud, Roberge etc...with bigger purses on the line back in the day some of the old secrets may never be known.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    News Flash! Home Depot and Lowes report a nationwide shortage of stainless steel washers.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    sgreggCaleBurdick
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    @Wish - I wonder if a D3 Rocker Block half can be mated with a D3 standard block half. Hmm...
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • skibrainskibrain Posts: 849 Crazy Baller
    The fin on my 1979 EP compx2 fin always looked slightly crooked to me. About a washer-thickness off from perpendicular to bottom of ski. Skied great, so I didn't mess with it.
  • skibugskibug Posts: 1,882 Crazy Baller
    So, what is the washer thickness you are using? Is it a fender washer to allow for some surface area?
    Bob Grizzi
  • Stathis VentourisStathis Ventouris Posts: 74 Baller
    @AdamCord I am a RFF and my fin is deeper by 35thous. on the left side. If use a washer under the middle screw of the fin box at the left side of the ski as recommended for RFF skiers, both sides will probably get even. Therefore should I use a thicker washer?
  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 460 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited April 2016
    @Stathis Ventouris You can stack up 2 washers if needed. I'm not sure you'll be able to get a big offset where the left side is much shallower, but just evening out the two sides will be a big improvement.
  • Stathis VentourisStathis Ventouris Posts: 74 Baller
    @AdamCord thanks, will try the coming weekend and report back.
    AdamCord
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,512 Administrator
    edited April 2016
    If this becomes a common practice @AdamCord will get credit but he may not have really invented the idea. I understand Wade Cox may have done this sort of thing 20 years ago*. I had never heard about it until Adam told me ... I guess the idea had been somewhat lost over the years.

    *there are conflicting reports about if Cox used a washer to shallow the whole fin or change the depth on one side. IDK

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  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 460 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Horton I wouldn't be surprised if he had done this. Wade is a smart guy and this is a simple idea. When it occurred to me I couldn't believe I had never heard of it before.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    An innocent question...Does this ever so slightly cause the fin block to become slightly out of perpendicular to the ski's surface making the fin no longer at a 90 degree angle from the bottom of the ski?
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    6balls
  • skialexskialex Posts: 587 Solid Baller
    @Stathis Ventouris loosen the fin clamp's screws, use spacers in the fin slot to center the fin, then tighten the screws again, loosen and tighten the fin, measure both sides and everything else and you might be ok and with an even depth on both sides.
    Then put the washer B)
  • skibugskibug Posts: 1,882 Crazy Baller
    What is the washer thickness that is being used? I am also curious about the answer to the question above...doesn't it make the fin not 90 degrees to the bottom of the ski?
    Bob Grizzi
    slow
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,512 Administrator
    Pretty sure my fin is 90°
    nothing to worry about

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