Trick Rule - Front Flip Rule Starting Jan 1, 2017

ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
edited June 2016 in Rules/Politics/Issues
Did you know there were two variations of Front Flips: Inside the Line and Outside the Line?
The video link below will demonstrate both.

This year, both are allowed. After January 1, 2017, only Outside the Line front flips will be credited. (Doesn't matter to me because I can't do either!)
Rule Change Summary (see page 12)

Additional interpretation: On an "Outside the Line" Front Flip, the path of the
skier coming down to the water at the end of the flip is on the side of the line away from the wake used to initiate the flip ("outside the line").

Click Here Video Link (facebook)

To me, this seems to be a change which will cause confusion and be missed or incorrectly understood by many trick judges. I just don't understand the need o benefit of the change.

Heck, to me the cut, spring, rotation, and landing look identical. The only difference I can see is which hand the skier keeps on the handle. That is probably more a factor of hand dominance than anything else.

Here's a Youtube version of the video:
-- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    @toddl No one is clearly harder than the other.

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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,620 Mega Baller
    Darn. I was totally gonna throw that flip, but I guess now I won't bother.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
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  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    I just know that this will be hard for many judges to remember and recognize when the time comes. Kudos to Kevin Jack for making the video.

    As I see it the hand that is furthest outside of the wake during the approach is the one that must stay on the handle for it to qualify. Thus, my dummies' version is "Outside" hand on the handle is likely a valid "Outside the Line" front flip.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • LuzzLuzz Posts: 215 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    My most educated guess is that front flips inside the line are much harder to judge. It's much easier to get a no-credit FFLI as the ski is more likely to depart from the vertical axis, aka the tail does not go over the head from the start of the rotation. This being said, if a skier manages to do a rule-abiding front flip (before the bold paragraph mentioning the line), I don't think he/she should be penalized. Even less, omitting this trick from the rulebook. My understanding is that top-level trick skiers are not in complete agreement with the rule change. We'll see what happens.
    Organizer of the San Gervasio Pro Am (recap videos from 2017, 2016, 2015, and 2014)
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  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    @Luzz There is quite a lot of comments on Kevin's FB post. Clearly there is not consensus support.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    Kevin moved the video to youtube - I added it to the original post.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,035 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    Some flips I just can't see. If it looks like a FFL it scores as a FFL. The hand on the rope is not relevant as far as what I have seen.

    Now, I've started some BFLs that I messed up and ended front flipping out of them to save myself. Some skiers perfected this and did weird looking FFLs that started out as a BFL and ended up as a FFL. Really hard to judge and not the same as a true FFL. A rule change a few years ago addressed this and FFLs score only if they look like a FFL the whole way.

    The video link above didn't work (too short?) so I have no idea what to look for.

    What drove this change? It is ridiculous if just the wording is used as a guide. I should have participated in the judge's phone discussion the other day...

    Eric
  • andjulesandjules Posts: 620 Crazy Baller
    edited June 2016
    I can't help but wonder "what is the problem that needed solving?"
    I couldn't access the FB link and its comments, maybe someone sheds some definitive light on it there...
    Were there tons of disputed judging calls where somehow the outside hand confused things?
    Are there legions of trickers getting caught in the rope when learning an inside-the-line FFL?
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,195 Crazy Baller
    has anyone considered it might be a safety thing? the second ' inside ' flip looked like it has real potential to tangle up or throw a loop of rope around a skiers head unless the skier yanks it out of the way in time.
  • fdesboyauxfdesboyaux Posts: 4 World Class Trick Skier
    To all my friends trick skiers, please watch carefully Kevin's new video, inside/outside line front flip it doesn't matter, because if you remove the rope of your vision, you will see that the flip rotation is exactly the same. What matters is the flip rotation itself. We just need good judges that can cut the crooked ones. (Outside or inside) it's easy to tell!
    Please let's keep this sport simple or it will die!
    dchristmaneleeski
  • dchristmandchristman Posts: 833 Mega Baller
    What about FFLB and FFLF would they also be invalidated if not landed outside? If not, @mwetskier I'm guessing it's not a safety thing...

    Here's a video of @fdesboyaux from the masters rd 2.



    Which side is it? Looking at a few other videos I'm guessing it's inside, but it's hard to tell from this particular video.
    Patience is the key to Joy.
  • RussellRussell Posts: 10 World Class Trick Skier
    @dchristman That's not Frank. This is a video of Ace doing a Front flip on the outside of the line like they should be done. There are some good examples of how not to do a back to front front flip and it would be nice to compare to Erika's outside the line back to front front flip which is 1 of the few good ones.
    fdesboyaux
  • fdesboyauxfdesboyaux Posts: 4 World Class Trick Skier
    @Russell there is not only 1 way to do a front flip, Which hand you keep on the handle doesn't matter, what is important is if the flip is straight!
    What if I do a front flip through the handle and catch it again?
    What you guys are saying about doing it just outside makes no sense! Jaret Ryan Dodd Kevin or mine are perfectly straight!
    I can do them outside or inside so for me it's not an issue but I just don't understand your point of view. Please give us more details!
    eleeski
  • RussellRussell Posts: 10 World Class Trick Skier
    The edge change and plane of travel are not the same. I'll try to find a video. If you compare your back to front front flip to my back to front back roll, the first half of the trick is identical. If I hold on with the other hand, my back to front back roll looks like your back to front front flip, but its not a back to front flip. Compare your back to front flip to Erika and they are not alike at all. I can't do it like Erika's, but I landed the inside the line on the 2nd attempt. They are different and the correct way is much harder. The hand you hold on with does matter. A front flip shouldn't have an edge change and swing to the start of it like a back roll, which the inside the line front flip has. Why not just do it on the outside of the line? Let's see back to front outside the line. For 850 points the entire trick should be a front flip. The problem is that the judges have a hard time calling it as it is. Keep it simple and just define a front on the outside of the line. The girls all do it straight on the outside of the line and it's not confusing to watch them trick.
    eleeskifdesboyaux
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,035 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    If the trick is straight and looks like a FFL why complicate things? A few years ago, people were doing a trick that looked like a BFL until the last second where it had a FFL landing. No idea if it was inside or outside the line, it just looked like crap. The rule wording change took care of that. I haven't seen one since. "Cheating" a FFL is not a current problem.

    As I noted earlier, there are different ways to execute tricks. Some are easier, some are harder but the point value is the same. It might be easier for a petite girl to go outside the line while a big heavy guy might find it easier to overpull to the inside of the line (that's what it looked like in the posted videos). Both are beautiful FFLs and both should score.

    If a trick can only be done "properly" by a "few good ones" then the trick definition is too strict. I've seen tons of good looking FFLs - Erika's look exactly like all the others that I've credited. I have no idea if they are inside or outside, one handed or two or what the ski was doing on the water before takeoff - because the trick looked right and it didn't matter.

    If this is about protecting a certain style advantage that some skiers currently have, well that is just plain wrong! Stifling creativity in trick execution can only close doors to excited new trickers. When a good looking trick gets cut on some quirk of execution the integrity of the entire sport comes into question.

    Of course, if we had partial credit judging then this might be an appropriate discussion to define deductions for form breaks. Scrap this toxic rule and implement partial credit judging!

    Eric
    bassfooterfdesboyaux
  • fdesboyauxfdesboyaux Posts: 4 World Class Trick Skier
    @Russell I completely disagree with you a front flip can be done correctly inside the line or outside the line, if it s that much easier like you are saying, then please do it!
    The old front flip rule was way better, you do the one you like the most, and the judges cut the bad ones when they see one!
    I have seen many bad outside the line but just because it's outside its ok it can be done crooked... That's not fair! If it's not straight inside or outside it should be 0!
    In my opinion the best front flip ever done is Jaret and its an inside!
    if you take the rope out of the picture you will see the front flip is identical!
    Again please answer that question what if I throw the rope, do a front flip and catch it after the tricks its done? Is that 0 points because it's not outside? Lol
    I hope you see my point that it doesn't matter where is the rope what is important is if it's a front flip or not!
    dchristmaneleeski
  • KJackfrostKJackfrost Posts: 9 World Class Trick Skier
    I think the main issue is that there are absolutely people out there who roll their ski when doing inside the line. If it rolls, then to me it is no credit. I think a lot of people are upset because trickers with crappy inside lines are getting paid that shouldn't. When I teach this trick, I demand that it be done outside so that the skier can learn how to not roll their ski. I have never even taught it inside, because it is so much harder to not roll your ski when doing it inside. Yes I ha done insides many times in tournaments but that is because until now there was no distinction, and in my opinion, my inside fit the criteria of the front flip definition better than my outside. I don't really care which one I do. In fact, making this video has probably guaranteed me that I would get it outside credit every time, even though in my opinion, my inside is straighter. Even though I think outside the line is the slightly harder version of the two on a trick ski, when I do an inside front flip, my head comes straight down to my belly button, just like I do on a trampoline. When I watch the video that I made, my inside looks more like a true front flip to me. I hope you don't think that I am being cocky by saying this, but most people who do front flip inside roll their ski, and I most certainly do not. In fact when I do it outside, in order to make the tail of my ski come over the back of my head, I throw my head towards my right hip and drop my right shoulder, and it feels to me more like a forward cartwheel than a front flip. I think there are a lot of outsiders who are much more of a forward cartwheel than my outside shown here is. Russell, I know it makes you angry when people roll their ski on inside front flip. I completely agree with you, and I don't think it should be given credit, ever!!! I don't know if jaret can do his outside or not but I agree with Franck. His is the straightest I have ever seen by the traditional definition of a front flip before this year. I think that where Franck and myself get frustrated is that a judge will pay any outside front flip no matter what. I have seen some really crooked outside fronts, and some people consistently do a cartwheel front flip outside the line, not a front flip. I know this for a fact because j have taught people (outside) who told me their last coach (no names mentioned, but is a 10 k tricker) told them not to throw their head forward, and not to kick their tail back, but to throw their right ear over their right shoulder, drop their right shoulder, and try to pull the ski around the left side of their body. I won't say who that was, but I will say that he is an outsider who in my opinion is not even close to as straight as some of the great insides I have seen like jaret, Ryan Dodd, Franck and myself. I also will say that I don't think this skier could do an inside FFL that didn't roll out into a backflip to save his life. It comes down to quality judging. I don't think that people should get cartwheel outsides every time just because it is outside. I also dont think that if your ski rolls on an inside FFL that you should get credit. If we are going to get strict on our front flips, let's focus on the quality of the front flip! Don't pay outside just because it is outside. As for me, either flip is pretty easy for me. I'm also not willing to lose 100 points this year so I am chucking it outside this year for the full 800. In fact I haven't been doing it inside, so when I had neilly take this video I did two of each in the same trip down the lake, it took me a few tries to do a good inside. They were all straight, but it took me a couple times to land it well. Granted, that's probably because I've been doing all my flips outside now including reverse front flip and FFLF. Anyways, this is a lot more than I wanted to write, but the bottom line is that judges need to cut inside FFL that are rolled off the wake. Which is a lot of the insiders, let's be honest. It starts as a backflip for some, not all. We definitely need to think about this rule change though, because there are a ton of outsiders that cartwheel their front flip outside. Those should be no credit just as much as an inside with a ski roll flare like a backflip should be no credit.
    eleeskifdesboyauxBruce_Butterfield
  • ntxntx Posts: 758 Crazy Baller
    @klindy. @KJackfrost . How does this score if the first is done outside the line and the reverse inside? First scores 800 andtge reverse 0 or 700?
  • WishWish Posts: 6,744 Mega Baller
    Slight high jack and hopefully one post will answer it but can a wake board of a certain size without fins be used in trick? If so what is the parameters on the board?
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,035 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    edited June 2016
    @Wish A finless wake board must have a length to width ratio of .3 (a 50 inch long wake board can be no wider than 15 inches - scale up or down as needed). I don't have my rule book in front of me but I think the .3 rule is right. Kirk skied in his first Nationals on a legal wake board.

    @ntx I expect the tricks are the same trick number so you can't do four. Not sure about reverses and their order and what scored. Look how a stupid rule just got complex.

    Eric
    Wish
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @ntx Quote from the 2016 AWSA rule book - The reverse BFL or FFL is defined as a BFL or FFL leading with the opposite shoulder and traveling in the opposite direction (right to left vs. left to right) from the original BFL or FFL immediately preceding it. The reverse WFLIPF(I or O) is defined as a WFLIPF(I or O) travelling in the opposite direction (right to left vs. left to right) from the original WFLIPF(I or O) , immediately following it. A WFLIPFI is considered a reverse of either the WFLIPFI or the WFLIPFO if done in the opposite direction immediately after as described above and similarly for the WFLIPFO with the WFLIPFI or the WFLIPFO.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,035 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    @klindy If I refuse to call this foolishness and just call what the trick looks like (a cheated FFL looks like a BFL to me, a good WFLIPFI just looks like a FFL) do I lose my senior trick rating? Some civil disobedience on the part of a judges revolt might be in order!

    Eric
    dchristman
  • WaternutWaternut Posts: 1,511 Crazy Baller
    I'm not a tricker but this seems really dumb to me. Both look like a front flip to me. I see the difference but who cares.

    Are we going to start judging slalom skiing based on control next? Skier came out of 6 ball with a slack line....no continuation because that's sloppy and cheating.
    eleeskifdesboyauxdchristman
  • KJackfrostKJackfrost Posts: 9 World Class Trick Skier
    ntx, both of the front flips in the video were in the same direction in order to not confuse the reverse with what I was trying to accomplish in the video - trying to show the difference between inside and outside in the same direction. My understanding of the rule as of now, outside front flip is scored 800 points whether it is the original or reverse. Inside front flip scores as 700 points, whether it is original or reverse for ski year 2016, and in 2017 (If the current ruling remains unchanged) an inside front flip will score zero points. For front flips with twists, there will be no distinction, and the front flips with twists can be performed inside or outside the line with no penalty as long as the forward flip is in the direction of travel and the tail of the ski passes over the back of the head.
  • ntxntx Posts: 758 Crazy Baller
    @eleeski . you can call it what you want. The problem is when the scorer enters it into the program. It does not recognize the old code. It needs fflo or ffli (we ran into this last weekend at our tournament)
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 944 Crazy Baller
    @wish @eleeski, the 30% rule was recently changed to 35% so a 50 inch wakeboard could now be 17.5 inches wide and still be legal for use as a trick ski. Additionally, the finless boards can now have ridges 1/2 inch deep and still be legal (this is an increase from 1/4 inch).
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
    MattP
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,035 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    The rule book I printed and used for a clinic I gave last winter listed only FFL. Stan took an online clinic around the same time and no mention was made of this. When did this go into effect? Seeing the dissent from some of the world's best trickers in this thread makes one wonder how and why this was so quietly implemented. Is it an AWSA rule or an IWSF rule? And how does it get undone?

    Eric
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @eleeski above I posted what's in the new AWSA rule book. Here's what IWWF has to say -

    "There will be two allowed styles of Front Flip referred to as an inside the line front flip and an outside the line front flip. An outside the line flip means that when the skier is going from right to left as seen from the boat, the skier’s left hand (or both hands) must remain on the handle during the trick and at the landing. An inside the line flip going from right to left means that the skier releases the handle from the left hand and lands holding the handle with the right hand. After January 1,2017, only outside the line front flips will be credited.
    Sample of a correct rotation Front Flip The rope may be held in either hand
    Sample of minimally acceptable correct rotation Front Flip The rope may be held in either hand The skier is turned slightly and facing the boat but still minimally rotating in the direction of travel which is left to right as viewed from the boat
    Sample of incorrect rotation Front Flip No Credit".

    There were links included that didn't seem to copy.

    Anyway the rule is effectively the same for both the AWSA and IWWF.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
  • unksskisunksskis Posts: 263 Baller
    So inside the rope flip will only last a year? When does the memo go out about this year's scoring change?
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