Slalom Judges: "Take the Hit" - Doesn't Apply to 6-Ball

ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
edited July 2016 in Rules/Politics/Issues
@Horton posted earlier about sub-par judging. @skidawg had a post about an opt up scenario with a score of 6NC.

With these posts out there, I still wanted to shed some light on something that I think many long-time slalom judges have wrong in their heads...

The skier does NOT have to take the hit to score a full 6-ball (regardless of NC or completed pass). If the skier gets back to the boat guide line before the exit gate ball with slack, then the call is a full 6 buoys and not 5.5.



Here's the rules to back this up.

AWSA Rules: 10.12 C & D (Page 60)

C. 1 point when the skier has crossed the line of the gate buoys before passing the level of the next buoy with a tight line under the power of the boat.
1. The intent of the tight line is to ensure the safety of the skier and boat crew. This means that if the skier can only cross the line of the buoys with a slack line, even if he successfully manages the sudden tightening of the rope, he will not get the full point.
2. The end gate case is different because of the spacing and thus if the skier can cross the gate line before the end gate buoy he will be awarded the full buoy.
a. This specifically means that the skier is permitted to have slack going through the exit gates. If the skier skis away then he may continue.
b. If the skier does not ski away, the turn ends and the skier scores 6 provided they crossed the line of the boat buoys before the end gate with or without a slack line.

D. For judging purposes, the front foot of the skier shall be used to determine the point at which the skier crosses the quarter, half, and full point buoy lines (or the end gate in case of the final buoy).

IWWF Rules: 14.07 (Page 42)

14.07: Scoring Buoys (see paragraph after bullet "c")
A buoy not missed is scored as follows, up to the point of the first miss:
a) 1/4 point when the skier crosses the line C-D AND the X-Y line in a skiing position (12.03). (See sketch).
b) 1/2 point when the skier has re-crossed line C-D in skiing position (12.03) before the level of the next buoy or end gate.
c) 1 point when the skier has crossed the line of the gate buoys (on a tight line under power of the boat and in skiing position) before passing the level of the next buoy (or the end gate in the case of the final buoy). This is a clarification, not a change of intent of the rule.(12.02).
The intent of the tight line is to ensure the safety of the skier. This means that if the skier can only cross the line of the buoys with a slack line then he will not get the full point so there is no reason to try that. The end gate case is different because of the spacing and thus if the skier can cross the gate line before the end gate buoy and ski away he will be awarded the full buoy. This specifically means that the skier is permitted to have slack going through the exit gates. If the skier skis away then they may continue. If the skier does not ski away, the turn ends and the skier scores 6 provided they crossed the line of the boat buoys before the end gate with or without a slack line. The skier may exit the gate with slack line.
A gate is not scored in any manner.
-- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
MattP

Comments

  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 1,900 Crazy Baller
    The rule on this is pretty clear. I think for "long time slalom judges", they tend to err in the situation NOT at the exit gate, but disregard the rule about slack at other buoys. That is the rule change that a lot of those judges don't seem to adhere to properly.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • gjohnsongjohnson Posts: 273 Baller
    I've seen this rule called improperly by senior judges.
    Greg Johnson ~ Team Beer
  • santangelosantangelo Posts: 144 Solid Baller
    @ToddL, are you explicitly stating that the skier can ski back to the boat guide line, drop the handle with a slack line, and get a score of 6 NC (not take the hit) before the exit gates?
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 4,838 Mega Baller
    @santangelo I believe that they can do just what you are saying. It is the only ball that is the case for because of the reduced distance between the 6 ball and the exit gates as compared to the any of the other turn balls and the next set of boat guides. The skier doesn't have to try to take the hit and potentially get hurt or put the boat crew in danger to get credit for the full buoy.
    Mark Shaffer
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,412 Mega Baller
    this is a good thread. We had this conversation at a tournament last weekend. Just to be clear, on the other buoys you need to get rid of the slack, then get back to the boat guides before the next buoy in order to score a full buoy. If you get back to the guides with slack, it is a half.
    Jim Ross
    Than_Bogan
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,287 Historical Baller
    Tilting at windmills once again, but I would like to see the handle-drop deal called 3/4
    buoy. It used to be called a full buoy. Now, calling it 1/2 (except the endgate) is an
    over-correction, in my opinion.
    Mateo VargasMattP
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    @santangelo YES.

    For a full buoy at 1ball through 5ball:
    The really short-line skiers will need to do their "S"-turn and cut back to the line of the boat guides under the pull of the boat in skiing position to get credit for a full buoy.

    For 6 ball:
    The skier can arrive at the line of the boat guides before the exit gate buoy under his or her own momentum (i.e. slack line) with the handle in hand, then drop/pop/lose the handle and the score will be a full buoy, 6 no continuation.

    I suspect that in reality if the skier rounds 6 ball with that much speed, they are near their toughest pass or a PB and will likely attempt to retain control and ski away. Depending upon the amount of slack and the hit, some will succeed and others will pop the handle.

    The key is that the judges' responsibility for 6 ball is to determine 5 elements in this order:
    1. Did the skier around 6 ball? If yes, then call is 5.5 at the moment. (just like other buoys)
    2. Did the skier lose skiing position (fall) or lose possession of the handle prior to reaching the boat guide line? If yes, then the call is final at 5.5 buoys. (just like other buoys) If no, then continue on...
    3. Did the skier and ski glide back to the boat guides prior to the gate buoy with handle in hand regardless of slack? If yes, then the call is 6 at the moment.
    4. Did the skier lose control of the handle or fall after #3 above? Then the call is 6 No Continuation.
    5. Did the skier pass through the exit gates and ultimately regain skiing position with the handle in possession under the boat's pull? If so, then the call is 6 and the skier's turn continues.
    That's pretty much it.

    The key distinction is that the timing of a handle pop/loss is not relevant for a score of 6NC once the skier has crossed the boat guide line after rounding 6 ball regardless if it is before or after passing (too early or through) the gates.


    (Still pending is the scoring clarification in an opt up scenario. Based upon the rules above, I expect the scoring to be that if the skier has passed through the exit gates with possession of the handle, in skiing position regardless of slack (boat's pull), the score would be 6NC at the opt up pass. If the skier does not pass through the exit gates, but meets the criteria above for a full 6 NC call, then the score will be 6 at the next sequential pass despite the opt up.)
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • jcampjcamp Posts: 608 Crazy Baller
    As a judge I find it very odd that on buoys 1-5 someone could get back to the gate buoy line, regain a tight line prior to the next boat gates, ride away and not get credit for the full buoy. Just to be clear, that would be the case if the skier got back to the gate buoy line with slack line, right?
  • santangelosantangelo Posts: 144 Solid Baller
    Thanks @ToddL. I understood and agreed with your original post, but wanted to clarify with different language. I also agree with your last summary, including the last sentence on the opt up scenario.

    One of the better forum discussions. I had never considered the case for 6NC on an opt up before, so this has been beneficial.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    That last sentence in the rules ("A gate is not scored in any manner.") is the problem. In reality, the gate impacts the score in two ways: Opt Up scenario and it is a factor in continuation. Thus, it probably should be amended to state:
    "A valid exit gate has no impact on the 6-ball score, but constitutes a completed pass and therefore determines the scoring applied to that completed pass. "
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • thompjsthompjs Posts: 511 Baller
    @ToddL

    Thanks for that review. I was driving two weekends ago and there was close call at 36mph@-38 at the gates. I think they ended up getting it right.

    I don't think I was clear on the getting back to the wakes before exit gate issue.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    edited July 2016
    Oh, and for completeness... Skiing Position is defined as follows:

    AWSA:
    8.07 Skiing Position
    Skiing position is defined as that position in which all of the following exist:
    A. The skier has possession of the tow line; and
    B. The skier is riding forward or backward on the water with a ski or skis on his feet; and
    C. The weight of the skier is supported by his ski or skis and the skier is ultimately able to regain control.

    IWWF:
    12.03: Definition of Skiing Position
    Skiing position is defined as that position in which all of the following exists:
    a) The skier has possession of the tow line; and
    b) The skier is riding forward or backward with a ski or skis on his feet; and
    c) The weight of the skier is entirely supported by his ski or skis, or the skier is ultimately able to regain control.

    So, if a skier is in a "falling" position but still meets A, B & C when that skier crosses the boat guide line before the next gate, then the full buoy scores. I've seen some skiers be too far forward, but still in "skiing" position and not lose the handle until right at the boat guide line. That's a tough judgement call for the officials. The key is that even though it was clear that the fall was inevitable, the skier is likely still meeting A, B, & C up through the point that the body impacts or the handle pops. The key is to pay attention to the point of the body impact or the point of the handle pop in relation to the boat guide line.

    Most often the handle pops or the skier ejects prior to getting there. However, a judge should not simply assume that this type of fall always scores a 0.5 buoy. Per the rules, it is the point at which the skier last had possession of the handle riding forward (or backwards?) and his or her weight is supported by the ski, regardless of how awful it may look or the inevitability of a fall.

    Also for the exit gates, theoretically a skier could be in skiing position just in time to score 6-ball, glide with slack out the gates, fall due to the slack hit, but retain possession of the handle, tumble turn and stand back up, skiing away and subsequently be allowed to continue.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 452 Solid Baller
    The AWSA rule says nothing about skiing position!!!!!
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    edited July 2016
    @skierjp - Interesting... I did not include the full text of 10.12. Here's parts A & B (not included in my original post.

    10.12 Points for Buoys
    A buoy not missed is credited as described below up to the point of the first miss:
    A. 1/4 point when the skier crosses the C-D and X-Y lines in skiing position (Rule 8.07) before the buoy to be rounded; however, if the skier passes on the inside of the buoy, he shall not receive the 1/4 point.
    B. 1/2 point when the skier has re-crossed the C-D line in skiing position before the level of the next buoy or end gate.
    C. 1 point when the skier has crossed the line of the gate buoys before passing the level of the next buoy with a tight line under the power of the boat.
    1. The intent of the tight line is to ensure the safety of the skier and boat crew. This means that if the skier can only cross the line of the buoys with a slack line, even if he successfully manages the sudden tightening of the rope, he will not get the full point.
    2. The end gate case is different because of the spacing and thus if the skier can cross the gate line before the end gate buoy he will be awarded the full buoy.
    a. This specifically means that the skier is permitted to have slack going through the exit gates. If the skier skis away then he may continue.
    b. If the skier does not ski away, the turn ends and the skier scores 6 provided they crossed the line of the boat buoys before the end gate with or without a slack line.
    D. For judging purposes, the front foot of the skier shall be used to determine the point at which the skier crosses the quarter, half, and full point buoy lines (or the end gate in case of the final buoy).


    (I quoted 8.07 above, too.)

    So, skiing position is required to get 1/4 and 1/2 buoy scores. However, you are correct! Section C - does NOT ever state skiing position in the AWSA rule text. That phrase only appears in the IWWF rule.

    So, I guess in a Class C, a skier can get a full buoy by simply having possession of the handle (tight line), and the skier's front foot gets to the boat guide line in time, regardless if the skier is in position or not. LOL!!!

    Seriously. The AWSA Rules as written with the omission of the phrase "skiing position" from the rule section 10.12 C, mean that the skier can be tumbling or sliding on their back at the time of crossing the boat guide buoy line and get a full buoy score.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,620 Mega Baller
    @ToddL Maybe a minor point, but the title of this thread is quite misleading to me. After 6 is the only place where taking the hit can (eventually) lead to scoring more points. At all other buoys, you get no additional score nor any opportunity to continue by taking the slack hit.

    The 6-ball is special in two ways, one of which is exactly the opposite of the thread title: 1) "Take the Hit" is still allowed at 6 ball. 2) a score of 6NC is awarded for getting back to the line even with a slack rope.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    I should have titled the thread:
    Slalom Judges: "tight line" - Doesn't Apply to 6-Ball

    Maybe @Horton or @MattP can edit the thread title.

    "Take the Hit" may be misleading... However, the rule text "on a tight line under power of the boat and in skiing position" has resulted in skiers rounding buoys with some manageable amount of slack and taking a hit to get back to the wakes in time.

    @Than_Bogan , If you equate "taking the hit" as "resulting in a fall", then I see your perspective. I do not equate it that way. I see "taking the hit" as attempting to keep going regardless of slack.

    At serious short line, if there is that much slack, then the skier is likely to do the "S" turn and attempt to safely ski back for a full buoy. At the mid line lengths, I see skiers turn the buoy and then discover the slack. They are not close to hitting the back of the boat. But they also usually aren't gonna coast with handle in hand all the way back to the wakes before the hit. The slack is typically consumed before they get there. Thus, they are the one's who turn the ball end up with slack and attempt to continue by taking the hit.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    meh.

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  • DaveLemonsDaveLemons Posts: 263 Solid Baller
    @Than_Bogan I can take a slack hit and score more points. If I take a huge slack hit at 2 ball but ride it out and get to the wakes I get 2 instead of 1.5
    davestaxidermystudio.com
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 84 Baller
    Just happened to me at Southern Regionals, I was last skier in my division and needed 3 1/4 @38 to win. Ran 38 but had lots of slack as i was exiting the gates and let the rope go instead of hurting myself and likely hitting boat or crew with handle. 1 judge gave me 6, two gave 5 1/2. After discussion between judges and CJ, I was scored correctly; 6 no continuation.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,620 Mega Baller
    @DaveLemons I have never seen that done, but I suppose it's possible. The whole reason for the rule is it's almost impossible to take a slack hit out by the ball. The rule encourages you to eat up slack "out there" with a zigzag and then get to center with a tight line in time.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 452 Solid Baller
    Regional judges, should have been the best of the best. This rule has been in effect for a number of years.
    You also wouldn't believe the judges that think the only way to score a complete buoy in the middle of the course is to ski away!!!
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 944 Crazy Baller
    @JackQ, happy to see the judges actually had a discussion when their scores didn't agree. That's the right way to handle it, but many times the scorer simply enters all of the different scores in the program and let it spit out the 5 1/2. When judges scores differ, there should be a required discussion to make sure everyone is applying the rules correctly. Admittedly, there is still room for judgement calls and different scores, but many of the differences are due to misunderstanding the rules by some of the judges.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
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