Current Promo Boat Rules

245

Comments

  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,757 Mega Baller
    edited August 2016
    Other (explain)
    @MISkier, @jdarwin @ntx - OK. hence, the "?" So, maybe the prices of boats have outpaced cars... $20k in 1990 would suggest about $40k in 2013 would be the boat equivalent based upon car prices. Hmmm.

    @oldjeep - the point is that the price of the boats may not be rising higher than the price of cars are rising. In fact, it may be rising at a slower pace/slope than cars. Thus, I am contemplating: is the price of a new boat too high? Maybe, maybe not.

    Back to my first post, the issue with the promo program isn't that the boat prices are too high. The issue with the promo program is the promo purchase price is too high compared to the used market price and demand. Thus, the risk is too high for the promo owner of not being able to resale at an acceptable price. If these two were more in line with each other, then the promo owners would still be line up for boats.

    @brettmainer pointed out another facet of the context of the market for boats... The used boats still perform quite well. About the only hiccup is the desire for ZO controlled boats. Once the used market is flooded with ZO boats at a depreciated price that matches the market demand price, then new sales will lag. This would further challenge the promo ownership model.

    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    MattP
  • oldjeepoldjeep Posts: 3,347 Mega Baller
    @ToddL - sorry, the "what was the point" was directed at the guy who said I was missing the point ;)
    Chuck P
    Not a mechanic but I play one at home
  • skiboat38skiboat38 Posts: 123 Baller
    edited August 2016
    @Ilivetoski .... Interesting perspective you have there… Please tell me about the boat you have bought
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,757 Mega Baller
    Other (explain)
    @oldjeep - But it was good, too. Made me take a second look and think a bit more. LOL!
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,757 Mega Baller
    Other (explain)
    @Jody_Seal (I also support the first pool option (align to IWWF and allow any prior year approved boat with current speed control.)
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    Jody_Seal
  • markchilcuttmarkchilcutt Posts: 903 Crazy Baller
    I looked into becoming the MC promo guy in Utah in 2014 and walked away saying no way not even worth the financial risk on my end. We currently have a Nautique promo in Utah and that is it. Seems like the promo programs are dying just like the sport is.
    Ski it if you can!!!!
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,379 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited August 2016
    AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)
    @markchilcutt - I disagree that the sport is "dying" but one of the factors in its decline has been the governing body's (USAWS) inability to change in the face of economic realities. Tournament skiing is shrinking. It certainly will die a slow death if we don't adapt to our currrnet environment.
    Joe Darwin
    MattPRazorRoss3
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)
    I know they won't do it, but what if the manufacturers leased the boats to the promo guys for the season, then took them back through the dealer network and have them sell the boats? I agree that there is no way I'd be in the program if I am signing up for a $60-70k boat every one-two years followed by a loss on the sale.
    Jim Ross
  • storm34storm34 Posts: 65 Baller
    Other (explain)
    What happened to making the promo boats more desirable or special when compared to what the used market has to offer? Seems the only thing setting the promo boats apart is a sticker in the window or graphic on the platform.

    How about allowing full colored deck (Nautique) or special color options not available to the general public? Maybe price breaks on upgrades for the promo owners to give them some leverage against the market. Not sure what is currently negotiated with each brand but give the owners a little freedom to make their boats stand out.

    My 44 year old, bright orange Correct Craft promo boat is now one of the most desirable boats to Correct Craft enthusiasts. I can't tell you how many times I've heard "never seen one like that before" from the general public at fuel stations and local lakes/rivers. The fact that it's something you couldn't order from a dealer and there were only 15-20 made (educated guess) makes them unique.

    How do we get back to that point?

    skiboat38markchilcutth2onhkjipster43
  • Moskier3evMoskier3ev Posts: 164 Baller
    Other (explain)
    As a promo owner we are going to have to recoup some of the cost. 2 weekends 25 hours on my 15 CP. A lot of us are eating $2500 to $3000 per year. I have my 15 6ltr with 440 hours on it for 39k negotiable. (Just had a full service)The lack of boats is going to effect all of us in raised entry's. Last weekend 2 current promos and 1 aged out promo. (I hope when it sells he stays in or there will just be CC and CP) in Austin. MC occasionally has a boat here from Houston. Donny C has let his 15 MC be used, but it got 14 hours on it at a tourney. He is not a promo. Just supporting the game. I don't know the answer... but we need to help sell or local promo boats. So the crazy ones that put 50 to 70k out there and let us play with their boats keep doing it.
    ToddL
  • rodltg2rodltg2 Posts: 1,051 Crazy Baller
    At this price one would think more people would jump on a Gekko. I guess most rather buy a 6-7 year old Nautique instead. I know this boat is not approved so can't pull events. Too bad they charge so much keeping small companies out
    ALPJrWish
  • dbutcherdbutcher Posts: 295 Solid Baller
    I would like to hear from people on this site who ski IWWF tournaments in countries other than the United States. Are many tournaments in these countries pulled by older boats? If so, do older boats cause problems that newer ones might not? Is more than one speed control system used in the same tournament? If so, do skiers dislike that? Would skiers rather ski behind a new boat or does it matter? If we want to ski behind newer boats, are we willing to pay for it? That's what it's coming to. I think the whole issue is caused by declining numbers of 3 event skiers. If we could solve that, the boat companies' support would come back. I for one am grateful for the support the boat companies have provided in the past.

    I am sure that I don't want to ski behind one speed control in one round and a different one in the next.
  • IlivetoskiIlivetoski Posts: 1,179 Crazy Baller
    Other (explain)
    @skiboat38 what about it? Name a company that has a significant portion of their cash flow come from ski boat sales. You can't. Don't get me wrong, say they make 5% of sales from ski boats, they don't want to just do away with that, it's profit. i don't think I get what you're point is (or maybe you don't get mine), my perspective is (in terms of new boat sales which is where this thread has gone) that Nautique Malibu and MC are going to price themselves out of what niche market there is. Centurion is doing a little better but a new promo is now asking $50K but I'm not sure what they actually go for
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 3,308 Mega Baller
    AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)
    What % of new ski boats do you think are sold to skiers who have any tournament participation?

    Also we toss around current speed control. That just = zero off. Unless there is some global player? See no reason a GR should be towable on stargazer.
  • skiboat38skiboat38 Posts: 123 Baller
    @Ilivetoski My perspective little Nikki is I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from..... Tell me a specific numbers of boats that manufactures build and what their profit margins are ......I asked you to tell me about the boat you have bought.....I'm on number 28....I find it interesting that someone has never bought a ski or paid their own entry fee has so much information on boats
    MattPOnside135wtrskior
  • ALPJrALPJr Posts: 1,753 Mega Baller
    @rodltg2 that Gekko should be approved along with the GTS 20.
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,301 Crazy Baller
    edited August 2016
    Boat manufacturers should work with AWSA to address the issue for 2017 or agree to delete the 2 year rule
    First of all here in KY we've been blessed over the years with good promo people and always have a boat or boats available. In today's environment I don't know how long that can or will last. I think that the mfg and dealers should be more supportive the promo program. Like someone said either provide a lease plan or lower the price so that the promo guy is guaranteed a sale that doesn't dig into his pocket. This may be naivety on my part, but I find it hard to believe that boat mfg can't sell promo boats a lot cheaper and still break even. They don't need to profit on a promo arrangement. What with the outlay of capital, insurance, towing to events the financial burden doesn't make the proposition very appealing to most people. As a long time LOC I'm very grateful for the support of promo people. I've heard horror stories of dealers relationships with promo guys, as if they're competitors with the dealer. They should be partners in support of the brand but most dealers could give a rip about promos guys; Act like they're a nuisance in a lot of cases.
    Bottom line....tournament skiing is in decline.....the promo program is in decline.....maybe all because of financial reasons. USAWS and the boat mfg do need to come to a position that benefits the sport and dollars are,the problem and the answer.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    jdarwin
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,114 Mega Baller
    AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)
    Way back when, the manufacturers were owned by families that had a deep connection to skiing that cared about the sport. Now, all of the manufacturers are public companies or owned by private equity firms. In both cases, they only care about bottom line profits. Its getting tough for the promo guys and the LOCs.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • ALPJrALPJr Posts: 1,753 Mega Baller
    I'm all for allowing 91 to 97 MC 190's and 90 to 99 CC SN's with any speed control in Class C and below.
    AjskierBraceMakerBrennanKMN
  • skiboat38skiboat38 Posts: 123 Baller
    Promo team members continue to drop and will continue to do so if things don't change. Support is non existent, if you have a problem you have to call one of the old school former employees to get anything done. Funny how when you tell them what a problem is the first thing they say is "we have not heard of that happening before", You need to call your dealer (when you know of several).....Do the dealers support us...no...do I blame them...no...they want to sell new a boat, that's food on their table. I went over 12 years without advertising a boat and had buyers lined up 3 years out, since 2010 I have wondered each year if this is my last one, now I load them out in case I end up keeping it. I don't make a dime off the boats as I sell them for exactly what I have in them and have made up my mind I will not lose to have a new boat or travel to a tournament that will get deep in my pocket. The market seems to change year to year. I could have sold last years boat 10 times over, this year I have the same colors and one of the better ones I have had but just had the same old tire kickers looking to tell me what my boat is worth. As a promo I do appreciate the sites that do try to take care of us and think long and hard about going to the ones that don't. It makes me laugh when I see people at tournaments say what the promo guys should and shouldn't do when they have never walked in their shoes....and they always seem to be the guys who show up, ski, and leave!
    jdarwinMillerTime38
  • unksskisunksskis Posts: 329 Baller
    Other (explain)
    @skiboat38 Thank you, and I always feel the same. We are lucky to even have people willing to put their dime down so boats can pull tournaments. The entire premise of this poll needs to be taken into question, and realize nobody owes anyone else anything. The boat companies don't owe anyone a promo program, and promo programs shouldn't decide tournament opportunities. We need to figure out how to make having a boat at tournaments more attractive and beneficial for boat companies, and vice versa, tournaments can be able to use any boat they please. These days less boats are going to tournaments, putting more hours on the boats that do, increasing the likelihood of those boats not returning next year, and then we wonder why tournament volumes have decreased, and backyard tournaments become more frequent. From a marketing perspective, having special run Promo boats, or exclusive options on promo's, seems to be the option of the future. Similar to the old MC Sammy Duvall edition, special colorways, features or options would help increase Promo desirability, value and resale. Current promo programs are a hit on everyone involved, and it will not survive in that manner.
    jdarwinDrago
  • oldjeepoldjeep Posts: 3,347 Mega Baller
    Just for information sake - how does the price that promo guys get compare to a well negotiated price at the beginning or end of season. The one former promo guy I know never made it seem like it was all that great a deal price wise, and some of the promo boats (that actually show a price) I see for sale on Ski-it-again are pretty close to the asking price of a brand new leftover.
    Chuck P
    Not a mechanic but I play one at home
  • unksskisunksskis Posts: 329 Baller
    edited August 2016
    Other (explain)
    @jdarwin I agree, but how much of that is really on the boat companies, or just AWSA? As has been stated, I'm not sure the boat companies find it all that beneficial, at least in the current scenario. Seems to me more like the organization sticking with the old ways of things, and the thought that this keeps things innovating, moving, and dispersing boats throughout the tournament scene, which is not true today at all.

    I agree, get rid of any requirement of boats for tournaments. If people don't like it, they don't have to ski or attend the tournament. It was frustrating that the only time I was able to ski behind a Mastercraft this year was at Regionals and Nationals, so we're already not getting to train behind what we ski behind in the big shows. I realize we need the boat companies a lot more than they need us right now, so I'm still just thankful to have something to pull me.
  • unksskisunksskis Posts: 329 Baller
    edited August 2016
    Other (explain)
    @oldjeep that is why promo and dealer relationships have dissolved over the past years, they end up competing with each other, and the manufacturer won't help either of them. The Promo person get's a "discount" because they take the boat to tournaments, likely local and regional, promoting, demoing, and overall marketing the brand of boat. The dealer see's this as doing little to no marketing for them specifically, let alone selling boats, and is already stuck with the 3 ski boats the manufacturer required them to order, and they have to place next years order too. So come Fall, promo is trying to unload last years model so that they can place, or have already ordered, their next year's boat. So dealer has 3, promo guy 1, and the manufacturer is still selling them boats, and getting all that marketing giving a boat at "discount" got them. Eventually the promo and dealer relationship goes sour, and the manufacturer is obviously going to support their dealer, and the tournament scene just lost another boat they had relied on being able to use. No one wins in the current system.
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 4,992 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Dealer who now gets 3 new boats gets two new and one for promo. Promo skier/driver leases it for the time they have it using as their own and takes it to tourneys with a custom wrap highlighting the dealer and perhaps does one stop instead of a tourney as a learn to ski/ski better day with the dealer.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
    swc5150ALPJrMattP
  • swc5150swc5150 Posts: 2,176 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @6balls is spot on. The local dealer and promo should work in concert together to promote the boat, sport and brand. When I sold MC's, our dealer owner would allow some sales team members to run boats for the summer as dealer demos. One just had to cover the insurance and floor plan costs, and keep it looking new of course. Perhaps something similar would work for promo boats?
    Scott Calderwood
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