Current Promo Boat Rules

124

Comments

  • DWDW Posts: 1,909 Mega Baller
    Interesting thread, certainly several issues in ensuring enough or acceptable boats pull the tournaments and fill the needs of the tournament rules and participants. The same scenario has also played out several times in the car racing world, albeit slightly different but the recurring outcome tends to be a sanctioning body change or migration from one (example SCCA) to a different one (Brand X). As prices / rules / stress / politics escalate (a natural progression and one that becomes more egregious when sanctioning body is under threat) it opens the opportunity for an alternate option to steal market share.

    An example is both SCCA amateur racing (in it's heyday had many classes supported by various manufacturers) and IMSA/ALMS professional racing (similar sponsorship and support story) participation has dropped dramatically due mainly to significantly increased cost of participation along with stress levels of dealing with the sanctioning body. What has taken their place, ironically, vintage racing and low cost alternate options of "run what you brung" formats that offer a much higher ROI and a high level of fun factor operating under a much lower stress format. My point is that potential certainly exists here based on a variety of threads dealing with lower tournament participation, stress level and cost of being part of the promo program, etc. Hopefully, to those that are part of the current scene and want that to continue but in a more healthy format, the vision will emerge on a solution to the various issues that can satisfy the participant, promo owner, dealership, boat manufacturer and sanctioning body.

    As to some of the comments on "skier must do x, y or z" good luck with that. Simply telling people to do something that goes against basic human instincts of getting value for their hard earned resource tends not to be a successful strategy. If society was all good Samaritans, Wal-Mart / Home Depot, etc. would not have gutted the local vendors. Modern technology and mobility is certainly changing the landscape on doing business which directly impacts particularly the dealership network and equipment vendors.
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,379 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited August 2016
    AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)
    Another point on this. An old promo friend of mine stated that in the old days, a manufacturer had to pull 60% (approx.) of the events in a region in order to pull Regionals. There is NO WAY that requirement is being met today in the SCR. Have the rules changed or has the governing body not pressed the issue?
    Joe Darwin
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,511 Mega Baller
    Other (explain)
    @jdarwin
    As per this years towboat committee meeting at nationals the numbers show that all manufacturer's are meeting quantitative requirements for eligibility to participate in all regionals and the US nationals. SCR included.

    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    jdarwin
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,168 Mega Baller
    edited August 2016
    AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)
    @jdarwin The "20% rule" still exists. "Record Capability Approved Boat models which participate in 20% or more of the traditional class C or higher tournaments held during the preceding year in a given Region are invited to pull each of those Regional Championships where it has qualified. Boat models that participate in all 5 AWSA Regional Championships and receive a positive performance report from 4 of the 5 Regions will be approved to pull the Nationals."

    Required number of events to pull the 2016 Regional Championships - Unchanged boats
    REGION Slalom Trick Jump
    East 12 4 5
    Midwest 17 10 10
    South 22 9 8
    South Central 14 5 5
    West 26 9 8


    Required number of events to pull the 2016 Regional Championships - New or Modified Boats
    REGION Slalom Trick Jump
    East 2 1 1
    Midwest 4 2 2
    South 10 4 4
    South Central 4 2 2
    West 8 3 3

    Sorry, the formatting is terrible, but those are the numbers - slalom, trick and jump per region. A link to the entire Tow Boat Policy Manual is below.

    Tow Boat Manual
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,379 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited August 2016
    AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)
    @klindy - 20%? I thought it used to be higher but I could be mistaken. As long as the number of tournaments continues to decline at the same rate as available promo boats, there won't be an issue. Sad.
    @Jody_Seal - thanks for the clarification.
    Joe Darwin
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,092 Crazy Baller
    AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)
    In the early days of the Carbon Pro, many of the credits in the SCR were from collegiate tournaments. Skiers at regionals weren't happy getting the Carbon Pro that year.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,168 Mega Baller
    AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)
    Notice that for "New or Modified" boats the number is tournaments required in each region is exceptionally low.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
  • JDMJDM Posts: 35 Baller
    @Horton had an interesting idea with the extra $10 a head going to the boat owner, but even that I am not sure is enough. 50 skiers = $500. That barely covers the cost of bringing the boat to the tournament with gas for the tow vehicle, lodging, food, other travel costs, wear and tear on the tow vehicle etc... Now if it is a double tournament and 50 skiers two days = $1000 maybe you are on to something.

    These promo guys are doing us a huge favor every time they tow a boat around and we need to appreciate that more. I really like what Tommy's has done as there is an easy way to appreciate Tommy's, simply buy your vest, gloves, ropes, handles, bindings etc... from them. Hopefully it works out for them and more dealers get involved in the promo game as a result as that is a great way for this to work for everyone.
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 492 Solid Baller
    Great idea. Every region is different. For example the west will comp the promo boat owners. The south will not unless unusual surcumstances. Many people believe that since we are compensated by the factories that is good enough.
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,268 Crazy Baller
    edited September 2016
    Boat manufacturers should work with AWSA to address the issue for 2017 or agree to delete the 2 year rule
    @Kelvin I'm kinda dumbfounded. You say that due to the fact the you got an exception to the rule a promo guy backed out? I don't get it. What is the difference to him? He gets credit. Would he back out if you had another promo from another brand? Does he want to be the only boat in attendance? I would say spread the boat hours and still get credit. @dave2ball by comp do you mean comp entry fees? I know some sites say "compensated by the factory that is good enough". That's just BS! We've sponsored tournaments for 21 years and I've always believed we should comp entry fees for promo, and we have. These same sites comp appointed officials and don't give that a thought. How much does it cost to drive to a tournament as opposed to towing a boat? Those people just don't appreciate the promo guy and don't deserve to get a boat. Just my .02.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    jdarwin
  • bigtex2011bigtex2011 Posts: 419 Crazy Baller
    AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)
    @JDM @Horton Our promo pulled 9 tourneys this year. I wouldn't expect any tourney to give me 500 or a 1000 to pull it with our boat. Most tourneys don't make much money and I feel like getting a free round is a fair swap. I also feel like it's a decent opportunity to sell the boat.
    I do think just about any approved year ZO boat could pull any event. Some boats are better than others for sure, but beggers cant be choosie.
    jdarwinDragoRAWSki
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,092 Crazy Baller
    AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)
    @LeonL We have 3 promo boats in the Houston area this year (one from each of the big 3). Just a few years ago we had 8 promo boats in the Houston area alone. We were doing 6 rounds of slalom over the weekend and had less than 20 entries each day. One of the guys lives at our lake and we used his boat. Another was never scheduled by the regional rep because it didn't include Trick. The other one was going to get his boat to us but it would have been difficult for him logistically due to some family commitments. I used my personal boat for 1 round each day to keep from putting all those hours on a single promo boat.

    Things have changed drastically for us recently. Just a few short years ago we had it real good in the Houston area. All we had to do was call the regional reps for each company and ask "Who is bringing their boat to our tournament this weekend". All tournaments in the area always had all the brands and some of the larger 3 event tournaments could have 2 of some brands to keep trick going with slalom at the same time.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 492 Solid Baller
    @LeonL If you comp promo people that's is great I have not been to one of you events. I did not know that you did that. You are diffently a rare case here in the south.
    My statements were a generalization not to point out one group or person.
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,379 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    AWSA should eliminate the 2 year rule and allow any boat with current speed control to pull events (similar to IWWF)
    We comp entries and house/feed the promo owner. They make a huge investment in their boat with little to no ROI. It's the least we can do.
    Joe Darwin
    GloersenMuskokaKyTFIN
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,268 Crazy Baller
    Boat manufacturers should work with AWSA to address the issue for 2017 or agree to delete the 2 year rule
    @dave2ball I know you're in FL, were in KY so there is no way you would ever be at our site. Just wanted to let you know what we do and that I know what a lot of other sites don't do. We appreciate promo people! You know Tim. He comes to all our tournaments. If can't be here due to work he gets his boat to us anyway.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    rodecon
  • blakeyatesblakeyates Posts: 109 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I like the Horton post on charging skiers $10/round that goes to the promo reps to cover costs. I suppose that would have to be blessed by the Boat Mfg's and USAWS? I have been in the program for 6 years and it hasn't been easy to stay in. I am year-to-year with Pro's and Con's.
    Blake Yates
    Nautique Promo Rep, GA
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 492 Solid Baller
    @blakeyates the club can do what ever the feel is right when it comes to the promo boats. The don't need USA water skis permission or permission from the factory.
    They are just helping us cover costs.
    MattP
  • jhughesjhughes Posts: 834 Mega Baller
    My wife and I bit the bullet and bought a 2016 promo 200 this fall. Dream boat for us. We are not rich. We figured:

    1. YOLO
    2. We aren't getting younger (Late 30's)
    3. Open Bow for the kids (they already make a "fort" in the area between the windblock and the loveseat extension)
    4. Who the hell else should have one of these if not us, honestly?

    We have a shared club boat already but this boat is for weekend fun and trailering around as a family. It is a RIDICULOUS expense with basically zero rational explanation (I can't bear to even mention to non-skiers what it cost) but again, what the hell. Money is cheap right now and with the promo program you get the full warranty and basically a new boat that's been all shaken out, dialed in, and proven. You also get more financing options since it is a current year boat.

    Now that we have this hog is there something we could do to help out the local tourney scene even though we are not promo owners? Is that something non-promo owners do?

    BdeckerDragoMuskokaKy
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,268 Crazy Baller
    Boat manufacturers should work with AWSA to address the issue for 2017 or agree to delete the 2 year rule
    @jhughes obviously I don't know availability of promos in your area (wherever that is), but I'm sure any LOC will welcome your offer. Just be aware of the liability insurance requirements for tournament boats, $500K. Also there is the possibility of damage. The LOC is responsible for your deductible, up to a max of $500, but......
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • dbutcherdbutcher Posts: 292 Solid Baller
    Also AWSA has to be an additional insured (for liability) on boats that pull sanctioned tournaments. However, that is easy to do and free.
  • brettmainerbrettmainer Posts: 221 Crazy Baller
    Other (explain)
    @jhughes, the tournaments will likely be fine without your boat, but you could help by supporting the local junior development clinics (if there are local junior development clinics in your area). The clinics will be good experiences for your children as they get past the "building forts in the boat" stage, and the clinics always need boats.
    Bdecker
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,962
    Boat manufacturers should work with AWSA to address the issue for 2017 or agree to delete the 2 year rule
    I disagree to some extent. Although I agree with what you say about JD. But jdarwin already stated he can't find boats. I know in Houston, sometimes it's hard now, too(which sucks because we had a plethora of boats only two years ago). Tournaments will welcome the offer.

    Joel, reach out to some tournaments in your area and make the offer. Every time I made the offer with my personal boat, they took me up on it. Especially Joe Darwin! lol.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    jdarwin
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 492 Solid Baller
    If more and more tournaments go into the later fall months the the promo person is in a tough spot. Sell your boat in fall so you have a boat for spring. Cant cover later events Or hold on The boat to cover the events. Which may force the promo people to Most likey hold on to the boat through the winter months and sell in spring. Holding on the the boat past the first of the year may cost the promo person more money because of property taxes which depends on the state you live in.
    Right now it comes down to Pay now with no boat fall or pay later no boat in spring. Either way there's a boat issue.
    Unless something changes with all boat MFG's and the way the promo boats are turned over I don't see this problem being solved.
  • Chad_ScottChad_Scott Posts: 434 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    In todays day and time promo owners can not get into the program expecting to make money. If you don't lose money its a bonus As a long time promo member, I can tell you that I appreciate tournament organizers like JD who comp entries and provide me a place to stay. JD always has good food and cold beer (working on his crown royal stock). My point is if you are skiing tournaments anyway, promo owners are much more likely to take a boat to a site like JD's who show their appreciation to the guy that tows the boat up to his site. With the bonus of getting to ski at a site you like. I put plenty of hours on a boat, so being on the promo team allows me to keep a boat each year without running up too many hours and really taking a financial hit. It does make it difficult for fall tournaments because I start trying to sell a boat and deliver it in August.

    TFINjdarwin
  • thompjsthompjs Posts: 532 Solid Baller
    @Chad_Scott I've been promo for various companies since 1989, I've never made money. If I can sell my boat for invoice, that is pretty good. I can almost never recover any of my credits for prior year tournament pulls. Now I think we are starting a death spiral with tournaments, since eventually promos will have to get significant cash for hours on their boats and this will be higher entry fees which will reduce participation.

    I have no interest in keeping boats for 2 or 3 years, the hours and lack of warranty transfer will make that an even harder sell. I can see clubs that have older boats and want to use them that would be good deal.

    I'm going to be talking with Malibu after the tests on a 2017, but I'll have to be clear on my contract with them. It has been pretty loose in the past, but I've had a great relationship with them since 1998. I know a lot of you know I've been with Malibu for a while and I am not dissing the factory in any way.

    If you are tournament chairman for tournament next year, you had better find out about boats and their costs next year. I spoke with another promo guy recently and he plans on charging by the hour after 3 hours on the boat at a tournament.
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,351 Mega Baller
    Not to worry. MC has already pulled back from three event skiing. Two more companies are considering doing the same. In a year or two we could be down to one of the "big four" making ski boats. The value of your used boat will increase and we will be skiing behind boats with 3000 hours on them at tournaments.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    MattP
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,268 Crazy Baller
    edited October 2016
    Boat manufacturers should work with AWSA to address the issue for 2017 or agree to delete the 2 year rule
    @thompjs , really? Some guy is going to charge by the hour to supply a promo boat? How much per hour? I suppose he can do anything he wants, especially the direction promo programs are headed. Does anyone of you promo guys see a conflict with company/promo program guidelines concerning charging a fee for pulling a tournament? While I support promo guys and would even support their receiving payment from the LOC, I think it would have to be a nation wide thing. Having been sponsoring tournaments for 21 years now, there comes a point where an LOC can only stand to go in the hole by so much, then you just have to quit losing money. Our club is 8-10 (according to what year) members. Club bank account is where the deficit is made up from. The only solution is an increase in dues to support tournament losses, (I don't how well that will fly) or increase entry fees to a level that may well be counterproductive. Just another indication that tournament skiing is in its death throes. Especially if the scenario put forth by @lpskier comes to pass.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    jdarwin
  • MSMS Posts: 4,996 Mega Baller
    Boat manufacturers should work with AWSA to address the issue for 2017 or agree to delete the 2 year rule
    When your boat is the only boat to show up for a 6 round weekend or 3 event weekend, you will pile up some hours fast.
    Shut up and ski
  • skiinxsskiinxs Posts: 492 Crazy Baller
    @MS ...Or the LOC decides to use two boats to pull at the same time, which pretty well doubles the hours on the boats.
    MS
  • BdeckerBdecker Posts: 256 Solid Baller
    Just looking at the promo section on ski-it-again.com shows very little change from August to now. Maybe it is down one thanks to @jhughes! Skiers just need to pass the handle on that old perfect pass tug and get a fresh promo. No one is getting rich off selling their promo, just hoping to order next year's boat so they can be "first to arrive" and "last to leave" at the events we all enjoy. All 4 of the tournament boats on the market are amazing machines that will perform incredibly well for years to come.
    Cent
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