Supplement to the promo boat poll...

jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,373 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
edited August 2016 in Rules/Politics/Issues
What boats should be allowed to pull ALL classes of AWSA tournaments?

Supplement to the promo boat poll... 112 votes

Current / previous year only
8%
jrsdave2ballskiinxsBbrandaubkreisBroussardskimaster93tfriessricski39MuskokaKy 10 votes
Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
71%
HortonskidawgDaveDski6jonesmlangeRogerscotchipmandislandskiepanimalWeapparawlyChef23RichardDoaneJohn BrooksBruce_ButterfieldBoneHeadKelvinMrJonesRpc29 80 votes
Any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass)
19%
thagerChuck_DickeybrodyBulldog[Deleted User]camjameyepeelerjackskibuoyboy1skiboat38BraceMakerpumpinpetejpattigroldjeepPorkfightBrennanKMNMike Gilebrettmainersupergadgetadkh2oskier 22 votes
Joe Darwin
DavidP
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Comments

  • thagerthager Posts: 3,745 Mega Baller
    Any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass)
    My 2002 196 with ZO is as good a pull as any boat out there for slalom.
    Stir vigorously then leave!
    ozski
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,382 Mega Baller
    @jdarwin -- my option isn't in the survey. I'd like current hull rather than current speed control. I'm sort of used to the 200, the Prostar, the TXi, and the Carbon Pro. While the 196 is also a great pull, it is different (for me) than the others. I also wouldn't want to face other older boats. In particular, the old 197 isn't nearly the same as a newer hull.
    Jim Ross
  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,373 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
    @Razorskier1 - then, option 1 would be your best choice to make certain you have the most "recent' hull to choose from in a tournament.
    Joe Darwin
  • oldjeepoldjeep Posts: 2,499 Mega Baller
    Any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass)
    Option 4 - Toss in a Bass boat for all skiers on a random day and see how they do :)
    Chuck P
    Not a mechanic but I play one at home
    Andreeyepeeler
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,382 Mega Baller
    @jdarwin -- true, but the 200 has been around for at least 5 years now (I think), and I'd be fine with an older one just like a newer one. Now, the problem with my answer is what do you do when the "next generation" of hulls comes along? Given the numbers in our sport, I don't think that's the top of my worry list right now!
    Jim Ross
  • keithh2oskierkeithh2oskier Posts: 291 Solid Baller
    Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
    So with the current rule you could potentially ski behind two different hulls for up two years correct. Lets say Nautique comes out with a new hull (SN 200v2.0) in 2017. For the 2017 and 18 ski year you could ski behind the both the 200 or the 200v2.0 as our current rule is written.

    What if the rule was amended to be not based on year but by hull design. As long as the speed control was the same (IE ZO). So in that hypothetical as long as Nautique stayed with the 200 hull, you could also use any 196 TSC3 hull that had ZO. That could go back to 2006 era if it has a ZO conversion. My 02 is technically a TSC2 hull so even if I did a ZO conversion it couldn't be used.

    This gives manufactures incentive to continue to develop 3 event boats so you don't have a 10-15 year span of boats that could be used like my example above.
  • BrennanKMNBrennanKMN Posts: 286 Solid Baller
    edited August 2016
    Any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass)
    I'd like to see Class C tournaments pulled with any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass). I have meet a few skiers around here who shy away from tournaments because they cannot afford to train behind ZO.
    All it means is more skiers willing to ski, more boats available to pull events which both are both good things in my eyes.

    Don't get me wrong. I wish I had a ZO boat, but it really sucks for me that I cannot train behind what I have to ski behind at a tournament.
    keithh2oskierMillerTime38Horton
  • RAWSkiRAWSki Posts: 317 Solid Baller
    Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
    How about just the most recent un-changed hull from each manufacturer with ZO.
    That would be the last 3 years of MC, 5 years of TXi and CP?, Even longer for SN I believe.
    Broussard
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,147 Mega Baller
    Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
    I don't like "any speed control" they don't all ski the same and going to a tournament without know which I'll get would be a bummer. I think I could put up the same scores any boat and speed control but the uncertainty would still take away in my view.
    Razorskier1MattP
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 4,392 Mega Baller
    Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
    Given they could all have ZO...I'd take a Bu Lx, Lxi, Txi. I'd take a MC 197 or Prostar, I'd take a CP, I'd take any post 1997 SN 196, I'd take a SN 200.

    My score will not be dependent on which boat above. I wouldn't recommend going back to PP for tourneys as a rule (esp given @Bruce_Butterfield concern above) even though I still train it...but the hulls have produced great wakes for a long time at short-line.

    For the record guys...have a record designation which would be any of the current hulls certified and with the current speed control. Specifically a Txi, 200, Prostar, or CP.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
    MillerTime38
  • BlueSkiBlueSki Posts: 437 Solid Baller
    Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
    To mandate that only current hulls be used seems as pointless and problematic as the current rule. Why not take it a step further and write a rule that all boats have the same hull? I get the speed control issue, but we have enough rules and mandates in the world already. Any prior approved hull with approved speed control seems good enough for me. If someone want to repower a 1985 SN 2001 and install ZO, I have a feeling the free market will take care of any attempt to pull a tournament by lengthening the list of scratches.
    ALPJrjdarwinToddLski6jones
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 1,721 Crazy Baller
    Any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass)
    Does there exist a world in which a competitor to zero off can enter the market with a speed control with current patent in place?

    What about if zero offs parent company decides to discontinue support?
    SkiRV
  • BlueSkiBlueSki Posts: 437 Solid Baller
    edited August 2016
    Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
    @BraceMaker, I think a patent lawyer will have to answer your first question. My naive scan of this makes me think it may be a while. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/8983768.html

    For the second question, while there may be a volatile transition, I have to believe that if there is a market with demand, a solution will be supplied.
  • John BrooksJohn Brooks Posts: 257 Solid Baller
    Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
    I agree with @richarddoane , we need to find ways to make sure there are fewer barriers to participation.
    schafer
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
    In order for the free market idea to work, sanctions would have to list the boats that are scheduled to be used. Then, registrations would drive demand or lack thereof for certain model year boats and speed controls.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    Razorskier1MS
  • oldjeepoldjeep Posts: 2,499 Mega Baller
    Any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass)
    @wish - Although I do not compete, I agree. It amuses me to no end how people will simultaneously wonder why there are fewer people skiing and complain that they are not skiing behind the smallest wake, with the newest speed control, in a single purpose boat, only when the water is calm and only when the weather is whatever their definition of warm is. Hard to believe that this is not encouraging the general public to ski.
    Chuck P
    Not a mechanic but I play one at home
    dvskier
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,147 Mega Baller
    Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
    @Wish, as added insight into your demographic comment, I have hosted several tournaments in Iowa, I don't believe there is a single promo boat in the state and if there is it may be a recent development because I've never seen it in the 6 years I helped the team with collegiate and non-collegiate tournaments in Waterloo, IA. We always have to use the exception rule and use boats that are 4-5 years old because despite having 2 college ski teams in the state, there are simply no boats. I know that Iowa State has been lucky in that they have known Minnesota ProMo drivers willing to drive to Ames to pull there events but still, nothing in Iowa itself. So it is definitely a different scene for tournament skiing than say Florida or other states with higher skier density.
  • oldjeepoldjeep Posts: 2,499 Mega Baller
    Any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass)
    Iowa State has a waterski team?
    Edit - according to their facebook they do not anymore
    Chuck P
    Not a mechanic but I play one at home
  • WishWish Posts: 6,684 Mega Baller
    edited August 2016
    Can someone post the exception rule. Maybe that's an adiquate sliding scale although I don't believe it should need to be applied for but rather an anually set rule/variance based on predetermined demographics. Less to do for someone willing to host a tournament.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 1,721 Crazy Baller
    Any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass)
    @oldjeep that makes me kinda sad to hear. they used to have access at a private site in ames.

    University of Iowa is still active in mcwsa
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,147 Mega Baller
    edited August 2016
    Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
    @oldjeep @BraceMaker, Iowa State has had one of the top 3 teams in the Midwest region for the past 5 years and compete top of D2, bottom of D1 at nationals. They just graduated a lot of talent from the Men's team but they still have a few power houses. The University of Iowa (where I went) has had a team since '92 but our practice site is a river unlike Iowa state which still practices at the two lake private site they always have.
  • oldjeepoldjeep Posts: 2,499 Mega Baller
    Any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass)
    @RazorRoss3 - so you are saying the team at Iowa State still exists? Every thing I can find indicates that they have not been active since 2014. If they do exist then they might want to update the dead links in their club listing. I've got a kid going to Iowa State who likely wouldn't care much about competing but wouldn't mind waterskiing/wakeboarding without driving back to my house.
    https://www.stuorg.iastate.edu/site/waterski


    https://www.facebook.com/isuwaterski/
    Chuck P
    Not a mechanic but I play one at home
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 1,721 Crazy Baller
    Any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass)
    Ah that facebook link is Illinois State (ISU)
    oldjeepMattP
  • oldjeepoldjeep Posts: 2,499 Mega Baller
    Any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass)
    Duhoo, that is what happens when you type in Iowa State Waterski team and then accept that google gave you what you asked for
    Chuck P
    Not a mechanic but I play one at home
  • BrennanKMNBrennanKMN Posts: 286 Solid Baller
    Any current/previously approved speed control (including Perfect Pass)
    I like this. I take the 'if you don't like the towboat - don't enter' the other way. If there is a PP boat and the ZO people don't like it - don't enter.

    ZO people say PP skis different, well, PP people say ZO skies different. It is a two way street. I get really tired of people who are only willing to ski behind ZO and scoff at PP boats like they are inferior and unskiable.

    How you can you say you are trying to remove barriers and then continue to say that anything prior to 2008 is no good?

    I'd be more than happy to ski behind anything. I am sure there are elitist people that only want the best. For me, a ski ride is a ski ride. Sure I might not run my best scores, but it sure as hell is fun to get out skiing more.

    I couldn't agree more with @Wish
    MillerTime38Jody_Sealkeithh2oskierBraceMakerMS
  • storm34storm34 Posts: 42 Baller
    edited August 2016
    @RazorRoss3 & @oldjeep - Some clarification and some info that might only add to the confusion.

    There is still an Iowa State Ski Club which skis at Dream Lakes just south of Ames. Not sure who the point of contact is at this time but if anyone needs to connect with them I can help as we ski with a graduate and know the gentlemen who helps them with a boat every year. They're very fortunate to have Dream Lakes and a gracious supporting cast behind the scenes.

    The state of Iowa does have a promo boat (Bu).....but it wasn't publicly known until a week before this year's state tournament. Not exactly sure the details behind his deal which further confuses the whole "Promo" situation on a lot of levels. All things aside - awesome boat and a cool guy. Hope to see them both more in the future.

    Next closest boat would be an MC in Nebraska or Minnesota as you mentioned above. Both of those boats were at this year's state tournament.

    MasterCraft had a long time promo owner based in the Des Moines area who started in the 70's and got out sometime around 2010. Great guy, was very active in the tournament community and a great representative of the sport.

    The previously mentioned ISU graduate then took over his duties for a few years but life, rules/regulations and growing costs have kept him from getting another boat since 2013-ish? He was very active and made a conscious effort to help on the collegiate level being when possible. Seemed like he fought getting the boat early enough from the factory and keeping it late into the season, one of the downfalls of the promo program when it comes to supporting collegiate skiing.

    I'm new to the tournament scene but quickly realized the need for more promo boats in the area. Hopefully we can find some solutions in the next few years.
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 1,839 Crazy Baller
    Boats with currently approved speed control (2008 to current with Zero Off)
    @BrennanKMN , there are some drivers that just can't seem to give you a consistent pull with PP. That's speaking of PP classic. I know. That's sounds crazy, but it's true. That would be my objection to PP in today's world. Then you have PP w/ StarGazer and Stargazer w/ Z-Box. It takes a dedicated and persistent person to get those systems working properly. Then you have the combination of a not perfectly set up SG Z-box and a fair driver and a short setup and it's a recipe for disaster. My .02 on PP in tournaments.
    For me, however I have a 196 with ZO and my ski partner had (recently sold) a 196 with PP Classic. We alternated use of the two boats and neither of us could tell any significant difference. Part of that equation was diligent attention to adjustment of +/- Factor of PP to get close to actual times. We never had problems due to our relatively short setup on one end, while another skier had SG w/z-box. Never could get it right. Finally gave up and got a boat with ZO.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    MISkierMattP
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