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JMac thinks he got a raw deal at the US Open - I think he might have a point

HortonHorton Posts: 25,517 Administrator
edited October 2016 in Breaking News
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  • ShakeskiShakeski Posts: 85 Baller
    He does look well over the front in the pic - however... if judges have looked at the ski tip and skier position breaking the boat line - then I would call it 2... Close one but well explained by JMac.
  • wtrskiorwtrskior Posts: 704 Crazy Baller
    It's really close. Very hard to judge if he is still in skiing position at the buoy line IMO, so I cant say for sure the judges got it wrong. Better video quality would help. Or some type of actual grid they could use to determine if he crossed the line. The pic below os from jasons site.

    Also as I understand the rules jmac posted there is interpretation whether he could have maintained control at that point. As you watch the actual video before that point it appears he would not be able to, with his weight and momentum taking him down. However, he rounded 2 buoy, whether he can get to 3 ball is not material.

  • jdarwinjdarwin Posts: 1,379 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Sorry - we don't use boat video to judge - we feel tower judging is much better here in the USA!
    Joe Darwin
  • drewski32drewski32 Posts: 207 Baller
    It's really tough to say if he was in skiing position or not though. It looks like his fall actually started right before the line, and he managed to just barely hang on long enough. Literally right before the buoyline he crunches severely if you watch in slow motion
  • MSMS Posts: 4,885 Mega Baller
    Shut up and ski
  • eyepeelereyepeeler Posts: 154 Baller
    Very, very, close call. JMac is absolutely in skiing position. Making the call at full speed from the boat or the towers. 1 1/2.
    Matt Dillon
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,054 Crazy Baller
    Is the frame by frame video available? Would like to see everything, not just a single photo.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,319 Mega Baller
    I've watched the video a couple of times and it looks like he is in the process of falling and just happens to have a tight line as he goes down. Benefit of the doubt goes to the skier so while I'd lean towards 1.5 I am not certain and would likely have given 2 ball in the moment. especially if I had been the farther away tower judge.
    Ralph Lee
  • JdubsJdubs Posts: 105 Baller
    The judges did the best with what they knew at the time. The score could have gone either way. Everyone that entered the competition virtually agreed that they were going to go with whatever the judges ruled on. I don't know how I would personally have ruled it, but its time to move on. J-mac is a fantastic skier and we all look forward to seeing him rip it up in future events.
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,329 Mega Baller
    bill clinton once said under oath ' that depends on what your definition of the word *is* is '. the rule in question says ' 1 point when the skier has crossed the line of the gate buoys '. i would say this call depends on what your definition of *crossed* is.

    if your talking about crossing a finish line in a foot race you only need to break that invisible plane with your nose or finger tips or whatever. on the other hand if your talking about crossing a city street you need to get *all* the way across or that delivery truck is gonna clip you in the but. so i guess it might be a good idea if the rule committee includes a definition of ' crossed ' in the future.
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,415 Mega Baller
    After further review I would go with the full buoy! Defiantly skiing position with a tight line and entirely supported by his ski and riding forward, Defiantly past the course boat guide line. Tough call though!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.

    Ralph LeebrodyaupatkingCaleBurdick
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 1,018 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Tough call. Based on boat video I would have called in 2.
  • gjohnsongjohnson Posts: 289 Baller
    Jmac has possession of a tight tow line, riding forward, and his weight is supported by his ski. He has met all three criteria for the definition of skiing position in his photo.
    Greg Johnson ~ Team Beer
  • jcampjcamp Posts: 696 Crazy Baller
    In real time I thought it was a two. But after seeing it slowed down it looks like his is on his way to falling. I don't think his weight is actually supported by his ski. He has already tipped past the point of no return by the time the ski crosses the line.

    Very close call. I don't think there is enough there in the video, even frame by frame, to support overturning the original call.
  • Ralph LeeRalph Lee Posts: 492
  • DirtDirt Posts: 1,527 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Wow that is really close. It looks like a 2 but I can see how you could call 1H. These are good to look at for educational purposes. @skimom ???
    I learned everything I know not to do from Horton
  • keithh2oskierkeithh2oskier Posts: 408 Crazy Baller
    It sounds like IWSF differs from AWSA regarding the criteria regarding scoring buoys. I see AWSA seems more lenient by disregarding the Skiing Position from scoring the buoys.

    From AWSA rule book:10.12
    C. 1 point when the skier has crossed the line of the gate buoys before passing the level of the next buoy with a tight line under the power of the boat.

    D. For judging purposes, the front foot of the skier shall be used to determine the point at which the skier crosses the quarter, half, and full point buoy lines (or the end gate in case of the final buoy).

    AWSA Rule book page 60

    I feel clearly that based on AWSA rules he scored 2 because Skier Position is not a factor in the AWSA rules.

    Given the event and IWSF rules, it would help if IWSF had a D reference regarding the tip or the front foot for clarity for the judges. I feel that using the tip of the ski would certainly go to the skiers benefit but even the front foot appears he scored 2 based on the rules he sighted but its pretty darn close.

  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,041 Mega Baller
    It hinges on some annoying semantics I think. As @jcamp points out, he is definitely on his way to falling. The challenge is in "weight supported by ski." I've always found that a little unsatisfying, because the sport is very dynamic and in many positions if you somehow got there statically, you'd just fall over, which sorta sounds like "weight not supported by ski."

    Whenever I bring this up, I always get "well, you know what they mean." I think this difficult decision helps show that, no, we don't all agree on what it means.

    If you are in the process of falling, but still placing some pressure on the water with the ski, then I'd call that still "supported by the ski" in the dynamic sense that I believe the rule has to mean.

    Thus, my call is 2.

    However, I think it would be pretty easy to justify an interpretation where you leave skiing position the instant you begin a crash (that you don't ultimately recover). In that case, this is pretty clearly 1.5.

    I generally believe that we don't want a bahzillion page rulebook that tries to be ultra-precise. There's a lot of downside to that. But the downside to the comparatively simple rulebook we have now is that judges have to make judgments. The judges at this tournament did so, and thus the final score is 1.5.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,415 Mega Baller
    I would have to disagree that Jason looked to be falling at the full 2 point score. If one looks at his load at the same point off of 1 ball in slow motion his body position looks nearly identical as that of the area just before he losses the handle going to three. 41 aint no joke!!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.

  • Mateo_VargasMateo_Vargas Posts: 801 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Would it have even been questioned under the old rule?
    Success is failure that just hasn't happened yet
  • AndreAndre Posts: 986 Crazy Baller
    Benefit of the doubt goes to the skier.
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,176 Mega Baller
    I watched it happen and immediately debated the issue with the friends I was standing with, very close to where the fall occurred. My impression was that he clearly made it to the line of boat guide balls before losing the handle but that his weight was not supported by the ski as he was in the process of an out-the-front launch. I said at the time that it was a tough call but that I would score a half. Some agreed with me, some argued that it was a full two. All that said, if it's too close to call with certainty, the benifit of the doubt goes to the skier. See, e.g., AWSA Rule 1.15.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • ToddFToddF Posts: 487 Baller
    Now we need judges in new York Like the NFL.

    Someone or some designated group should be able to review that video and reverse the call made on the field,

    This wouldn't help at the time, but:

    1. Have the skier fill out a form Pay 25 bucks and some designated review group in the AWAS, can either overturn or confirm the call.
    2. It might take a couple of weeks, and only count towards the overall score or PB of the skier, not standings or cash payout but if someone wants to challenge they would have a fair and viable option to get the score they believe they earned.

    If this already exists, then disregard.
  • brodybrody Posts: 299 Baller
    Line is tight, still on his ski broke the plane....2
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,368 Historical Baller
    Since this was an "R" tournament, boat video was required. JMac could have put up $250.
    to have the call of 1.5 reviewed. A score of 2 would have changed a 3-way tie for 4th
    into a 2-way tie for 3rd. Maybe the prize money gain would have not been worth it,
    unless his protest was upheld and his $250. refunded.
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 1,054 Crazy Baller
    @Edbrazil according to his blog, he did protest.

    @Andre @lpskier The "benefit of the doubt" rule is in the AWSA rulebook but not the IWWF rulebook. This was an IWWF tournament so benefit of the doubt rule does not exist.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,368 Historical Baller
    Missed that. Wonder whether the protest was submitted and handled in the proper
    manner, which would have included a review of the boat video by a designated judge
    and/or Chief Judge. If so, he would be out $250.
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,368 Historical Baller
    edited October 2016
    OK. Read the blog. Hours??? Was the protest fee submitted and the proper video review
    procedure followed? Blog is not clear about that.
    Presumably, the @jdarwin comment was not serious, but an attempt at dry humor.
  • bkreisbkreis Posts: 279 Baller
    after watching the video, I'd say tie goes to the skier and it's 2 as it's too close so decision should favor the skier
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