How about a rules change for speed for older skiers?

LeonLLeonL Posts: 1,900 Crazy Baller
edited November 2016 in Rules/Politics/Issues
This is purely selfish on my part, but most people don't spend much time thinking about a situation unless they're personally impacted. I would like to see a rule change that allows M7 and up and W7 and up to ski at one speed increment above the division max and get credit for that speed increase. It seems especially significant with respect to the fact that when moving from M6 to M7 your speed drops to 32 and you ski at that speed ONLY in that one division. Then M8 you drop again. I'm aware that you can ski at an increased speed now, but you only get credit for the buoy count of the lower speed. Does this change seem reasonable? When are rules change requests accepted?
Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
AkBob
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Comments

  • dbutcherdbutcher Posts: 203 Baller
    That's all being discussed in Rules right now (I think). The better solution is to change the rule so that a M6 skier who wants to stay at 34 be allowed to stay in M6 as long as he wants. If one wants a 34 mph score, stay in an age division that skis 34. Don't force any skier to speed back up to remain competitive.
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 1,854 Mega Baller
    Would they do the same for 36 mph? Would someone stay in B3, M1 or M2 to ski that speed?
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
  • dbutcherdbutcher Posts: 203 Baller
    Anything is possible. I'm pretty sure B2/G2 can already ski in B3/G3.
  • wtrskiorwtrskior Posts: 704 Crazy Baller
    edited November 2016
    In Canadian rules you can ski in a lower division if you choose, but not a higher age. So you would ski against M6 and at M6 rules. I don't think many do it but the rule was likely created for this reason; where you skied 36 or 34 and didnt want to drop the speed.

    I actually think we need to look at a special 34mph division for juniors and young adults who don't ski at 36. I waited 20 years (until M3) to ski my first sanctioned tournament because I never skied 36.
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 1,854 Mega Baller
    @dbutcher, I am talking about someone older than B3, M1, and M2 still desiring to ski at, and be scored commensurate with, 36 mph.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
  • dbutcherdbutcher Posts: 203 Baller
    Interesting. Are Canadian rules available on line anywhere?
  • wtrskiorwtrskior Posts: 704 Crazy Baller
  • dbutcherdbutcher Posts: 203 Baller
    @MISkier I don't know, but I don't see why that could not be done. For example, if M2 is now 25 yrs-34 yrs inclusive, change M2 to 25 yrs and older. Anyone over 25 no matter how old could ski in M2, and M2 ski at 36.
    MISkier
  • ALPJrALPJr Posts: 1,311 Crazy Baller
    How about 32mph for mens 5 or mens 6?
    eleeski
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    IWWF divisions are open ended. So the grouping is 13 &a under, 17 & under, etc. For the older divisions you have 35+, 45+, etc. That seems to make the most sense to deal with the options. At least you are competing with a group all under the same condition.

    Skiing faster in slalom and getting credit for the buoys make sense but of you apply the same issue to jump it's more challenging to solve the problem.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
  • ZmanZman Posts: 956 Crazy Baller
    For the M7 consideration, I would rather be allowed to ski 34 mph if you choose and get 6 more buoys than others skiing 32 mph at same line length. But, still compete in your true age bracket. You simply get more buoys with more speed, or shorter rope. You choose.
    Blood type IPA
    MISkierescmanaze
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 1,900 Crazy Baller
    Don't you think it's kinda odd that Men ski at 32 in only one age division? Not so for women.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 647 Crazy Baller
    edited November 2016
    It would be good if the RC would consider implementing the 2016 Options for Juniors rule [10.06 (d-g)], therefore using the Advancement and Scoring matrix [10.06(g)], page 49, for ALL skier divisions in class “C” tournaments for 2017.

    Something similar may have been suggested in another thread.

    Some may argue against it citing an unfair impact on Level 8 status, Nationals eligibility, etc. Considering the low level of participation in Nats; it’s moot.
    stå løpet ut
  • dbutcherdbutcher Posts: 203 Baller
    No set of rules will make everyone happy. The current AWSA age/speed rules work pretty darn well. I have yet to see a change proposal that is universally better.
  • raynrayn Posts: 333 Baller
    Any rule change that rewards more buoys for a higher speed is a defacto increase to max speed for that age group. I think the proposed alternative for those who want to keep skiing the higher speeds is to stay in the previous age division.
    Ray Newmark -
    MattPdbutcherThan_Bogan
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 1,819 Mega Baller
    @dbutcher @wtrskior Keep in mind that Canadians also play with an extra man and three downs.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    wtrskiorSo_I_SkiSprazzle
  • wtrskiorwtrskior Posts: 704 Crazy Baller
    edited November 2016
    @lpskier don't forget that 15 off is longline in Canada! With 6 months of winter who needs an extra 15 feet of rope to work with
    lpskier
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,673 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    This is nothing new. I skied 36 mph (except at regionals and nats) until I was 42. Can't guess how many times I brought up, here and on other boards, the fact that in Canada you can simply stay in M2 forever if you want.

    Finally got tired of fighting the system and went women's speed full time. Still not over it...
    bigtex2011Than_Bogan
  • bigtex2011bigtex2011 Posts: 369 Crazy Baller
    My vote would be to leave it the same.. I think changing it would effect to few of people.

  • John BrooksJohn Brooks Posts: 270 Crazy Baller
    @Gloersen last year when the rule change was being reviewed for the kids, also in the proposal was for all divisions. The RC decided to implement for kids, apparently not enough support for all divisions.
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 1,900 Crazy Baller
    edited November 2016
    @bigtex2011 "effect (sic) to (sic) few of (sic) people". It would affect all people in those division's mentioned. If that's too few, then those divisions don't matter in your eyes, I guess.
    Once you reach 65, there's a big difference in skiing against those your age and wanting to go 2 mph faster, (and getting credit) as opposed to staying in the younger division.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    escmanaze
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,620 Mega Baller
    Triple sic! Isn't that used to make Margheritas?

    I see no reason why we shouldn't follow Canada's example here. No harm to letting people stay if they want.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    jimbrakeSo_I_SkiSprazzle
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 1,854 Mega Baller
    I don't know what the difference is for everybody else, but my PB score at 36 mph is 2 buoys higher than my PB at 34 mph, as each were set or tied in the last two years. Last year, my 34 mph tournament best was 1/2 buoy better than my 36 mph tournament best.

    So, if there is some concern that allowing older skiers to ski faster and receive that credit will be some sort of huge advantage over skiers that do not want to opt up in speed, I'm not seeing it. I think that is why the scoring is 6 buoys apart for consecutive speed increments at the same rope length - because it is essentially equivalent. I do know that I enjoy the ride more at the higher speed.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
  • PhilPhil Posts: 58 Baller
    I would like to see the whole age cat thing revisited, the majority of skiers now appear to a younger fitter group of people and i believe that we should drop to 32 mph at say 68 ? and that the 35 yr age group stay at 36 mph until 40 yrs old moving all the catorgories i believe would help
    Phil Hughes Champions Lake Clermont FL.
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 1,812 Crazy Baller
    Wasn't there an INT low speed series for a bit?
  • bigtex2011bigtex2011 Posts: 369 Crazy Baller
    @LeonL .. no i think it would only effect a few people in mens 7 and 8. I think the rest are fairly stoked to go slower otherwise we probably would have already heard about this. Just my 2 cents
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    Ironically I was chairman of the (then) Skiers Rating Committre when the age groups were expanded to where they are today. At the time we had a lot of folks complaining about going to fast and how bodies breakdown fast, etc and argued for 5 year age groups instead of 10 (M2/M3). Now the cry is for the opposite.

    Personally it makes some sense to allow anyone older than a certain age to ski in a "younger" division. And allow anyone younger than a certain age to ski in an older division. I'll guess the age break is somewhere close to 25 or 30. Same for men and women.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,150 Mega Baller
    edited November 2016
    Today's Senior skier and athletes of our sport in general are in better condition then they were even as little as 10 years ago. Medicine, fitness knowledge and information is abundant and with the internet the older skier is physically stronger with this information available. Equipment ever changing as the bar gets higher. Speed control dictates that the skier is lighter and needs to have less impact on the boat.
    The current crop of men 5 and 6 are the group that 20/30 years ago were the break out group as real short line skiing started coming of age. Technique was being really defined as they learned to ski these shorter line lengths.
    Keith suggests the change while on ratings. In that Scenario the squeaky wheel got the grease as the leadership at the time was older skiers that where not in the condition older skiers are today nor did they ski with the equipment we ski with today as did they not utilize the big engine boats and speed control of today.
    A few years ago a group of ex open skiers tried to implement a 35 mph class that fell on def ears.
    As membership continues to dwindle maybe the def ears need hearing aids and start listening to these requests and concepts rather then NO!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    Bruce_ButterfieldklindyMattPSo_I_Ski
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,046 Mega Baller
    @klindy if my understanding of the rules is correct, can't a skier, who is say 68yo, go to a class L tournament and ski in the over 45 group since L is run under iwsf rules? So for that small subset of tournaments, including most regionals and nationals, doesn't the ability to not slow down already exist?

    I know most L tournaments use usaws age divisions, but shouldn't they really use iwsf age divisions?

    Perhaps the easiest solution is to scream into the deaf ears that this is one iwsf rule that should be put in the usaws rulebook?
    If it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.
    klindyMattP
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 1,900 Crazy Baller
    Perhaps my concern, or call it confusion, is why only one age division for men (M7) is at 32. Why have a skier ski at a given speed for only 5 years? I think it would be good for that speed be for M7 and M8. Women slow from 34 to 32 in W5 and carry that speed through W6 before slowing to 30.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
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