Judging a driver...

WishWish Posts: 6,744 Mega Baller
In light of the recently posted video of an unfortunate boat path, I have some questions with boat path and what gets done about a poor one..one that may not be that extreme.

1. How do you judge the pylon location when the head of a judge is clearly in the way? Use the judges head? Is it vid from stearn direction that gets used?
....I've seen stearn vid of a skier behind a tail wagging Centurian with the pylon pretty straight down the middle.

2. How is it decided it is cheating vs just sucky driving when I have heard that it is hard to "help" a skier on such a short line.? A sudden increase in scores aside, what really determines a cheat driver?.

4. If it is cheating, what is the judicious procedure for making changes to scores?

5. What is the judicious procedure for reviewing further boat paths when one is determined to be out of line?

Looking for answers outside of the controversy and emotions. Looking for judges to chime in. It may be a good thing for current and future sites that are taking time and money to put on tournaments. Especially sites that may want to go from class C to an R. Hopefully good info and less emotions can prevail on this thread. Just looking for answeres, not examples....although hypotheticals that can easily explain rules may help.
>>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
gregy
«13456

Comments

  • WishWish Posts: 6,744 Mega Baller
    edited December 2016
    @aupatking asked for some end course vid to show some wagging. This is Nate Smith..extremely efficient skier and guessing one of the easier ones to drive for considering where and how long he loads the line (notice I did not say how hard he loads). Bit of wagging and some boat guide smacking. So questions above still stand..how do you judge this and questions 2-5.
    .
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    aupatking
  • ALPJrALPJr Posts: 1,311 Crazy Baller
    edited December 2016
    Great ad for that boat company!
    RAWSkiMuskokaKy
  • WishWish Posts: 6,744 Mega Baller
    edited December 2016
    @Chad_Scott hypothetically what would your pattern look like from boat path vid if you where "helping" a very shortliners skier? Also trying to keep this thread on point of answering general questions not directly related to other thread. More of an informational thread for drivers, judges, tourny directors and the like. Much appreciate your time and input.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • ALPJrALPJr Posts: 1,311 Crazy Baller
    After another look, imo the center of that boat does move a hole heck of a lot.
    HortonWishbishop8950Broussardbbrannan
  • Chad_ScottChad_Scott Posts: 357 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I have video which I sent to @ Horton of pulling Nate at 41off as well which he may post. What I would describe as pattern driving would be when the boat is obviously moving from side to side with the skier. Ping pong down the lake boat guide to boat guide making the slalom course narrow to benefit the skier I have been fortunate enough to have the opportunity to drive most of the open men's skiers and rather than giving them a few inches at the buoy most of them would rather just finish the turn with a tight line so they can do what they do.
    Wishbishop8950adamhcaldwell
  • WishWish Posts: 6,744 Mega Baller
    Curious question... Is Nate one of the easier skiers to dive for ...aka..where he loads and for how long?
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    chris_logan
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 1,900 Crazy Baller
    @Wish in order to answer your question #1, here is the wording from IWWF (IWSF) rule book.
    A mark or small post on the top of the windshield that is visible in the end-course video camera (both directions) shall be placed 20 cm from the centre of the windshield on both sides of the centre to aid in the determination of the 20 cm deviation.
    @Chad_Scott used the word "suggested" when mentioning centerline marking. IWWF rules states a 5cm strip on the center of the windshield will be used. In the two marks it says "shall" and in the single center mark it's says "will".
    With full respect to Chad, suggested or otherwise, Having noted the above, has any one of you ever seen such markings or "posts" on a boat in any tournament C,E,L,R? I personally have not.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    Wishskierjp
  • ALPJrALPJr Posts: 1,311 Crazy Baller
    edited December 2016
    @Horton Absolutely agreed as in - great ad for that boat co. Typo, meant to type - does not. Was typing in bed on my way to sleep.
  • Chad_ScottChad_Scott Posts: 357 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @LeonL is correct. However I used suggested because several world records have been approved by the IWSF council without the line bring present on the windshield . All that said I think it definitely would help to determine centerline deviation.
    Wish
  • WishWish Posts: 6,744 Mega Baller
    edited December 2016
    That leads to another question...to approve, disapprove a pass or flat out call it cheating, do both end videos get scrutinized and not just in one direction on a given pass?

    I gotta say, other then a scant few pro events that I have seen, a mark on a windshield is never there. This seems more and more like a judgment call then exact science. Am I wrong and if so..why? I can see why it would be tough to get this into the Olympics regardless of the ...its propelled by an engine.. reasoning.

    This is all very interesting, most likely very helpful to others and again appreciate the time and posts.

    Anyone want to take a stab at questions 4 and 5? I know there's high ranking AWSA personal around here.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    brody
  • Chad_ScottChad_Scott Posts: 357 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    intentional weaving is pretty easy to spot with a naked eye. The guys that plot the end course spend hours doing so. And it is plotted in both directions. The record pass and the previous pass must be plotted to approve a record.
    Than_Bogan
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,483 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    From what I understand you are allowed a deviation of 4 inches, I am not sure if that is 4 inches either side of the center line or 2 inches either side of the center line.

    "How Nice Is It, When You Feel The Boat Release You ”

  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 1,900 Crazy Baller
    @Stevie Boy See above post. 20cm deviation to each side. That's 7.8 inches. Four inches, in my opinion, would not be achievable in most cases.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 1,900 Crazy Baller
    I was boat judging at a "C" tournament and two skiers, one deep 39 and the other into 41, both skied better than average. After I got out of the boat they approached me, pulled me aside, and asked if the driver was weaving the boat. They are skiers that I respect and have a high level of integrity. They just felt it was a little too easy. I answered honestly that I didn't know. When the line gets into 39, after the pregates and entrance gates I've got my eyes pretty busy being sure to determine 1/4, 1/2 and whole buoys, not boat path.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,483 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited December 2016
    @LeonL I was thinking that, thankyou for making it clear, the Driver I was talking to was Ian Campbell who is a World Class driver, very focussed and proud of what he delivers when driving a boat.

    "How Nice Is It, When You Feel The Boat Release You ”

  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,483 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @LeonL when skiers ask if it was the correct speed or if you were helping them because it felt easy, in my opinion thats when you have had a really good day, your driving was spot on and in tune with the skier, in and out of the course, if the skier feels unrushed and you are lined up outside of the course it can make a big difference in the course.
    But it was also a good day for the skier, for what ever reason they were in the groove and skiing at their best.
    A combination made in heaven ! Most satisfying for both parties.

    "How Nice Is It, When You Feel The Boat Release You ”

    6balls
  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,115 Mega Baller
    edited December 2016
    I'm certainly not casting judgment on the driver in question, because everyone breaks rhythm now and again, and that's still world class driving. But there is a visible difference between the two passes whereby in the Nate pass the driver is giving him the back of the boat and in perfect rythm with the skier, and the other seems more like a late reaction. I think the pass in question presents its own challenge at the buoy managing rope effectively. But to Chads point the pylon stays still
    Daryn Dean - Lakes of Katy, TX
    ***Robbed out of Hundreds of Panda Worthy Posts***
    Horton
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    edited December 2016
    Files that showed up in my inbox in the last 24 hrs


    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly / DBSkis /   Denali / Eden Ski Lake  / Goode / HO Syndicate / MasterCraft / Masterline

    O'Brien / Performance Ski and Surf / PTM Edge / Stokes / Reflex / Radar / Wakeye

    Texas6pumpinpeteMickeyThompson
  • WishWish Posts: 6,744 Mega Baller
    Guessing the quality video is better on a live feed or original digital recording?
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 874 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I assume those are both @Chad_Scott at the wheel? Awesome driving for sure. Makes me wish we did not ski the same division so you could drive for me!
    6balls
  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,115 Mega Baller
    That's impressive driving
    Daryn Dean - Lakes of Katy, TX
    ***Robbed out of Hundreds of Panda Worthy Posts***
    Broussard6balls
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,483 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Haven,t thought much about it before, but does more weight in the boat help the driver ?

    "How Nice Is It, When You Feel The Boat Release You ”

  • thompjsthompjs Posts: 511 Baller
    Mark on windshield issue. You can use the frame on the walk through windshields to help with the record check. This is old news
  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 452 Solid Baller
    Leonl@, Okeeheelee uses a target that is suction cupped to the windshield for Splash Eye. Funny story. A few years ago at Okeeheelee they kept telling me to move 2 inches going south on the Main Lake. After a few passes we found that the target on the windshield was not in the center, it was 2 inches off. If any drivers ever gets a chance and can get in the drivers seat at Okeeheelee ( don't hold your breath ) it will be a awesome and possible humbling experience! The problem with some drivers that drive under Splash Eye is they feel like a steel cable. They are afraid to work the boat with the skier.
    kurt
«13456
Sign In or Register to comment.

Not sure how to deal with a long link?