What percentage of skiers in each division should qualify for Nationals

dislanddisland Posts: 1,053 Crazy Baller
edited February 9 in Rules/Politics/Issues
Currently the percentage varies by each division in an attempt to ensure enough competitors in each group. It also has a very low bar for juniors to help drive attendance and participation. The result excludes many skiers in the more populated divisions like Mens 4 and 5 slalom

What percentage of skiers in each division should qualify for Nationals 47 votes

top 5% for each division
4%
scotchipmanjdarwin 2 votes
top 10% for each division
23%
HortonanimalPSMThan_BoganJackQwalleyePat MDkLkSkrJeffSurdejJWebSkiMike Gile 11 votes
top 20% for each division
25%
Chef23RichardDoanelpskierskiinxsMarkTimmjayskiBbrandautreyskier1ZmanMurrskiMillerTime38brettmainer 12 votes
top 50% for each division
10%
unksskisALPJrGolfguyadkh2oskierskitractor 5 votes
top 80% for each divsion
0%
top 100% (open to anyone with a score), its a festival right?
25%
dislandSkiRVBoneHeadh2oskiJody_Sealskier2788IlivetoskiBlueSkigmutbojansdchristmanosuskiiershea 12 votes
keep it the way it is now
10%
skiepjstaab3klindykurtMISkier 5 votes
Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
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Comments

  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,053 Crazy Baller
    top 100% (open to anyone with a score), its a festival right?
    @MarkTimm Thanks for voting, No offense but, you cant make it a festival if you only let the top 20% in. Thank you for your post but this is the root of the problem. If its too small there isnt enough money to pay for all the fancy officials and boats, and vendors wont come. So its either a tournament like Sr Worlds (very exclusive) super competitive with great skiing or a festival. To be both a festival and a tournament you have to let more people in.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    RichardDoaneJohn Brooks
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,165 Mega Baller
    Never been so I won't vote because I don't know but if the goal is a ski festival then I'd say bigger, if the goal is a competition that can occur in a reasonable amount of time so people don't have to burn a week of PTO to attend then it needs to be smaller.
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    keep it the way it is now
    While I did say "keep it the way it is" I do think it needs to be tweaked. The straight percentages don't work for me since it would tend to make the younger (and older) divisions much smaller than the way they are. Simply lowering the bar to include 50, 80 or 100% of a division would tend to add to the middle groups (M/W 3-6) and keep the rest the same or close. The "way it is" allows for each event and each division to be adjusted separately for (presumably) justifiable reasons.

    For example, I personally believe that it would be good to push 3 event participation particularly in the younger groups. So I would set 'overall' to include a higher percentage of participants. (Note - Skiers would need to compete in their respective regionals and, to qualify for regionals, the bar can be pretty low as long at the skier has a score above zero in the previous year).

    Likewise, I very much like the idea of the LOC bids to target a tournament size. If it's a two lake site that can only manage 350-400 skiers adjust the qualification thresholds accordingly. If it's a 4-5 lake site and the tournament(s) want to go on for a week or more, potentially let everyone in.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    Than_BoganJWebSkiBoo
  • LLUSALLUSA Posts: 206 Solid Baller
    @disland what do you mean by fancy officials?? I don't think I've ever seen you work a Nationals. National officials are anything but fancy, most if not all give unselfishly of their time to make this event happen, skiing at the Nationals is an honor for most and having skied in over 20 I still miss it to this day.
    LLUSA, Sr Driver, AWSA Board of Directors, Towboat Committee,Lake Owner
    RichardDoaneJody_SealBRY
  • JeffSurdejJeffSurdej Posts: 244 USAWS Official
    top 10% for each division
    STATS-OVER 1500 PEOPLE AND 2500 PULLS ARE NOW QUALIFIED TO GO. YET ONLY 500 SKIERS AND 1000 PULLS GO.
    AWSA President
    HortonRazorRoss3Jody_Seal
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,053 Crazy Baller
    top 100% (open to anyone with a score), its a festival right?
    @LLUSA Very sorry to offend anyone of the many dedicated volunteers that serve at Regionals and Nationals. That certainly was not my intent.

    Let me elaborate. Compare Sr Worlds or a "small" nationals to an all inclusive Nationals. If we were to say restrict nationals to the top 10% of the rankings list then most of the competitors would have a shot at the podium. We could then bring in the best drivers and officials who would be "voted in" like we do now and it would be a top tier event. Small and short. Of course you would most likely have to raise entry fees to cover the expenses.

    The other option is to make it an all inclusive festival. Since its a festival we dont have to sweat all the high end competition aspects. Make it class C. Let any rated official, and driver volunteer. This spreads the work out beyond the small core group we have now. The elite skiers could ski in masters division. Make masters and B3/G3 a class R and everything else class C.

    What we have now is a "crisis" where the governing body budget depends on a revenue stream from Nationals. To generate the revenue you need entries. So we are continuing to try and manage the number of attendees in order to make it big enough to have enough revenue yet not too big that it cant fit at the site or be too long. If its too long its a burden on the dedicated core group doing all the work.

    How about we do what the members want. Take a vote, its a democracy right.

    My point is lets figure out what we want it to be and then build it from the ground up to be that and stop letting the "budget needs" drive the decisions.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    klindy
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    keep it the way it is now
    @Than_Bogan I'm also in favor of a "multi-event" style tournament where everyone is ultimately invited but perhaps only the top tier are actually competing for the National title. Depending how it's done it can be fun.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    Than_Bogandislandski6jonesbojans
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,053 Crazy Baller
    top 100% (open to anyone with a score), its a festival right?
    @klindy what's the difference? Remember when Mens 3 slalom had to be on two lakes.

    Whats the difference between skiing on the turnpike lake in the bottom seed group at Nationals and finishing 53rd, or skiing on the turnpike lake under a different sanction and finishing 20th?
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,165 Mega Baller
    @JeffSurdej, that's a good data point but I think it speaks more to ability to go rather than desire as far as its possible more people who are qualified may want to go but simply can't for schedule or cost. Regardless of inclusion cut off the number of people who qualify will likely always be less than the number of people who attend. Personally I don't think your ever going to accomplish a ski festival on top of a national competition format. If you want a ski festival do a convention, 3 lakes, coached practice pulls behind various tournament boats, ski demos, etc. Call it ski-con and put our national competition somewhere else. Most collegiate regions have a "winter conference" depending on the region there may or may not be skiing involved but in the Midwest they bring in 3 pros to do classroom instruction and have beginner, intermediate, and advanced forums for all 3 events. It goes for one weekend, you have 100+ skiers in the same place, ski talk all day, drinking at night, with a banquet Saturday night, there's you ski-con model.
    disland
  • JeffSurdejJeffSurdej Posts: 244 USAWS Official
    top 10% for each division
    @RazorRoss3 how many days would this last?
    AWSA President
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    keep it the way it is now
    @disland the difference in your example is 33 places but I don't think that's your point ... I'm suggesting the events outside the actual National Championships can be set up as handicap events or team events or something where it's not quite the same as the best-in-class wins the trophy tournament. Clearly the format would need to be different to appeal to the rest of the community and attract participants.

    Long ago I also did a lot of Trapshooting. Each year they have what's called the "Grand American World Trapshooting Championships". It's an 11 day long festival type event where only the last three days are set aside for the true Championships (1 day for each of the three events). The rest of the time are other side events/competitions on the same site which attract lots of people. The site is purpose built by the association which has allowed vendors to even build permanent display buildings, etc. They have been able to do a pretty good job combining a festival type event with the prestige and competitiveness of a true championships. Check out the progam on the link above (direct link here)
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    dislandDrago
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    keep it the way it is now
    @jcamp your story is very familiar to a lot of us.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    jcamp
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,620 Mega Baller
    top 10% for each division
    @jcamp We may actually be thinking more similarly than it appears. I would still want a cutoff to be able to participate in the "side" event(s) because it's infinitely more fun if it's about "good" skiers AND it provides an incentive to get there. Out of my ass, maybe top 30% for that?

    However, I'd still like there to be an event which is just about crowning the champions, that I could reasonably hope to watch in its entirety.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,053 Crazy Baller
    top 100% (open to anyone with a score), its a festival right?
    @klindy I like your ideas. I am super excited about some of @hortons ideas. What's good about them is they aren't gated by any major decisions, rule changes and such.

    I hope some of my ski buddy's get to come to nationals too while a slip in the back door by doing over all.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    klindy
  • JeffSurdejJeffSurdej Posts: 244 USAWS Official
    top 10% for each division
    @Kelvin interesting,
    AWSA President
    raynRazorRoss3
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,165 Mega Baller
    @JeffSurdej, I think there would be some debate around duration. For example, just Saturday and Sunday and the most people would have a workable schedule to go but there wouldn't be enough time for them to do what they wanted, stretch it to a full week and no one can stay the whole time so you lose money each day. I'm sure there is a balance at a 3-4 day mark. I should clarify this is not an event I feel any need to see ever happen, it was me suggesting that if you want a waterski festival that the national tournament is the wrong approach and should be a separate event.
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,150 Mega Baller
    edited February 9
    top 100% (open to anyone with a score), its a festival right?
    Then there is the skier that skied 1 tournament to get qualified for the nationals took a big deduct and was seeded so as he was first off the dock in his men 2 division and won the event!! This did happed.

    So now here we are wanting waterski industry manufacturers to give us skiers some kind of buying percentage to become AWSA members, then ask these waterski industry manufacturers to step up and supply monetary resources in supporting and sponsoring the regionals and nationals and then only take 10% of the skiing population at the big show? when only 10% come to the show that means only 10% of the family's come to the show and who the hell wants to come to another waterski tournament just to watch??
    So here I am Widget boat or ski manufacture that was approached to offer discount's and sponsorship to the sport and the big show and you can only syphon 50 people through my vendor station? Guess what I am going to tell you.....? Don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out!!!

    Want to support the sport? Start thinking inclusion and not exclusion!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    skier2788
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,806
    top 100% (open to anyone with a score), its a festival right?
    USA BMX's Grand National is the final national of the year, and the place where the NAG (national age group) champions are crowned. It's an open race. Anyone can enter. It's also the largest bike race on the planet with over 4000 racers in attendance. And it's also a quadruple points event. So your top 6 national event points, plus Grands get added up. With Grands being quadruple points, making the main event in your age class can put you in the hunt for the NAG championship. In a lot of classes, though, you have to win Grands because if you don't, the guy who you're competing with for the NAG title will win. Getting a top 10 NAG jacket at Grands is a HUGE deal. You have earned the right to have a special 1-20 number plate for the entire next year. There is huge competition for those NAG positions coming up to Grands every year. Even down at the 18-25th points position. Just making it to NAG20 signifies that you are the best of the best in the US.

    Shane "Crash" Hill

    skier2788dislandBRY
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 944 Crazy Baller
    @Jody_Seal not saying he can't win by skiing in one of the lower Series, but it does add an incentive to ski more tournaments to move up the ranking list to the big show. Shouldn't we do things to encourage skiers to ski more tournaments!
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,150 Mega Baller
    top 100% (open to anyone with a score), its a festival right?
    @Kelvin Coming off injury or life needs to take priority what then?

    Inclusion not exclusion
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • dchristmandchristman Posts: 833 Mega Baller
    top 100% (open to anyone with a score), its a festival right?
    When I first read this thread I was of the 10% opinion. @Jody_Seal 's last argument for inclusion caused me to vote 100%. Not only should the Nationals be open to any skier with a score, so should Regionals. Fill'em up! ... and no requirement to ski Regionals to ski Nationals!

    Set the max number of competitors/pulls for Nationals and Regionals just like any other tournament. Allow the top 10% from the prior season to get their entries in before an early deadline, after that entry is open until the limit is reached.
    Patience is the key to Joy.
    skier2788
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 944 Crazy Baller
    @Jody_Seal they are not excluded from the tournament or the opportunity to make it to the podium. They have the same chances as they do now. The only difference is they ski earlier in the tournament.

    Now that you bring it up, who is more deserving of an opportunity to ski at Nationals? A level 8 skier that only skis regionals and nationals each year and isn't an official and doesn't help the sport in any way other than skiing these 2 tournaments or a Level 7 skier with a State Safety Rating, a Senior TC Rating, a Regular Driver Rating, a Senior Judge Rating and an Regular Scorer Rating that skis in about 10 tournaments a year and attends several others in various support roles but doesn't ski?
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
    ski6jonesTexas6
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,053 Crazy Baller
    top 100% (open to anyone with a score), its a festival right?
    @Kelvin Dont forget promo boat owners who are often asked to bring a boat and not even get to ski
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    ski6jonesTexas6
  • KelvinKelvin Posts: 944 Crazy Baller
    Yep, there are many contributors to the sport that should be rewarded with a ski ride at Nationals.
    Kelvin Kelm, Lakes of Katy, Katy Texas
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    edited February 10
    Just a different idea...
    Two Phase Nationals.

    Top 20 ranked persons in any division are qualified for the finals no matter skill. Yes, so maybe B/G1 or MB/W10+ might mean everyone is qualified, so be it. Not all "Top 20" skiers will attend. So be it. Thus, there may be vacant "top 20 seats". More on that in a moment... read on.

    For everyone else, there is a 1st phase Prelims which is a 2 round Class C with open enrollment, up to a max number of pulls per the LOC capacity and event schedule. The best of two rounds score is used to rank the field. From those rankings, more skiers qualify to make the finals. Finals is capped at say 40 seats per division. So, the attending "Top 20" persons fill up their seats (up to 20), and the remaining seats are populated by the Class C results. That could be 20 from Class C or more if some of the "Top 20" skiers didn't attend.

    Since the Class C is open to anyone, those "Top 20" skiers can also ski in it, but they are excluded from the ranking, since they already have a seat in the finals. All scores go into the score book as Class C for everyone who skis. Registration has a very early deadline so the LOC can plan accordingly.

    This puts the event back to a state where the number of skiers in the finals is not out of hand huge, but is representative of those who are the top and those who are dominating at the event. With about 26 divisions and up to 40 pulls per division in the finals, finals represents up to over 1000 pulls. We know some of the divisions won't fill 40 seats, but there you have it. Plus, the Class C Prelims will draw a wider audience, too.

    The festival is set for the days of the finals. Event/divisions are organized such the the most extreme scoring divisions are scheduled for spectators to attend. Marketing is focused to the public with those division's competition's schedules highlighted. Once the sun sets, bring on the live music festival atmosphere. Possibly combine with Open in the lights.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    dislandThan_Bogan
  • MSMS Posts: 4,285 Mega Baller
    Place in state, place in Reg and on to the Nats.
    Shut up and ski
    Horton
  • thagerthager Posts: 3,788 Mega Baller
    But... but... but,,, then we all won't get a trophy?
    Stir vigorously then leave!
    Horton
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