Tournaments on Demand

elrelr Posts: 215 Mega Baller
I was thinking about access and increasing membership and came up with this --

So I'm on the dock at Cory's [insert approved tournament site here e.g. @Horton 's] in line for a lesson. @Jody_Seal [insert rated driver here] is driving today. @JeffSurdej [insert rated judge here] is there to take a set also. Why can't I say to Cory "I'd like to start with a tournament set." Jody pulls me and Jeff boat judges. I fall on my 3rd pass and get my score. Passes 4-6 I get instruction. At the end of my ride I get an attested score sheet. I go home and get online and enter my class whatever score into the Rankings Database. The first tournament ride I enter in a year costs me $X and each ride thereafter costs $Y. I get my tournament score. I haven't had to spend the night in a hotel room or be away from the family for a weekend day and I've got a tournament score in the database. AWSA has an income stream.
Ed Rink - LSF Texas
klindyskibugskidawgBulldogMattPsunvalleylawbojansTexas6BG1ozskiescmanazeLuzzjerrym9400
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Comments

  • JeffSurdejJeffSurdej Posts: 244 USAWS Official
    @elr we used to be able to do that with expert ratings, its not a terrible idea, especially if class C ever becomes just a boat judge only. This score could be loaded on the app and it sends me and jody an email or some signal that we have to sign off on and then the score becomes official. $5 a ride a score, maybe we could make huge revenue, or maybe these only count for so much % of your rankings, IDK, its an interesting idea overall
    AWSA President
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    Ahhhhhh...... @elr this is EXACTLY the kind of 'practice score' I have been talking about. In this particular case you could argue that it's equivalent to a class C score.

    To help confirm the score was legit, I would 'add' a virtual scorer to the process. After you enter your name and score into the database you need to 'tag' the driver and judge. They'll get an email (or some other notification) where they can confirm your score.

    I like it!!
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    skidawgMattPelrBG1
  • skibugskibug Posts: 1,882 Crazy Baller
    I might even ski tournaments and get a drivers rating, judges rating, etc.; if we could do something like this.
    Bob Grizzi
    elrBG1
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 4,838 Mega Baller
    I love that idea. We have drivers and judges (assistants) at my lake and this would be a cool way to get some tournament scores.
    Mark Shaffer
  • WishWish Posts: 6,744 Mega Baller
    Hmmmm... site qualifications?
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    walleyeBG1mnewth9400
  • kurtkurt Posts: 73 Baller
    @klindy This is not even close to an "equivalent" C score. To say that this would be equal
    is ridicuolus. No scorer , No unbiased judge , No unbiased driver, No witnesses , heck Dr. Michaels would have run -43 everyday.

    You would have to come up with another designation and weighting of the ratings

    billy's puddle swerving around the frogs
    RazorRoss3Bulldogsantangelo
  • skibugskibug Posts: 1,882 Crazy Baller
    you know what they say, everybody can run 38 off......on the internet.
    Bob Grizzi
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,165 Mega Baller
    Might want to limit rounds per day, week, month. Before I moved to Austin I could've taken 3 tournament scores a day 5-7 days a week under those rules. given enough tries your average and best would be the same number. In my case that was true this year anyways but I'm pretty good about being my game when I'm on the dock.
    kurt
  • John BrooksJohn Brooks Posts: 270 Crazy Baller
    Sounds like a great idea to me.

    Why is everyone so hung up on what they perceive as lesser quality scores? Does it really make a difference? The only impact seems to be seeding at Regionals or Nationals. For someone attending those events, when the rubber hits the road, they have to ski & live up to there ranking. It all works out.
    MattPschaferBG1BoneHead
  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,879 Moderator
    @elr that might be the most progressive idea i've heard in a while.
    John BrookssunvalleylawBG1Than_Bogan
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @kurt I said someone could make the case for it. Obviously you don't agree.

    In another thread I suggested more than one column of scores 1) "practice" (or something like this); 2) class C and 3) class ELR. How or even if they are aggregated somehow isn't the question.

    Besides I someone only posts scores like this and never skis a tournament, they can be suspicious. If my practice scores are close to my tournament scores (hence separate columns) then where is the argument?

    Regardless, if it enticed skiers like @skibug and no doubt hundreds of others to have some kind of USAWS membership haven't we made progress?
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    John Brooksfu_mansunvalleylawskidawg
  • skibugskibug Posts: 1,882 Crazy Baller
    @klindy I am already forced to be a member....so that wouldn't help the cause of expanding the membership base.
    Bob Grizzi
    klindy
  • skibugskibug Posts: 1,882 Crazy Baller
    2 ranking lists to keep it on the up and up.
    Bob Grizzi
    MattP
  • liquid dliquid d Posts: 795 Crazy Baller
    This seems like something one you computer gurus could tackle on a trial basis. Take the $5 a ride, and let's see how it shapes up. Won't count towards any Awsa rankings, but would be fun way to talk smack across the country. We'd have to come up with a good name for it!
  • WishWish Posts: 6,744 Mega Baller
    edited February 10
    Probably done rather easily through a phone app.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,879 Moderator
    edited February 10
    @Wish now that's an app project I would like to work on. @JeffSurdej @Horton I wonder if we could throw something together to test this idea out with the ballers this season. It would not be too difficult to set up. I think if it got implemented with AWSA in the future it would be a great way to drive membership back into the association as well as drive some extra revenue. The ballers would be a great test group. Thoughts?
    BG1ozski
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,053 Crazy Baller
    I like tournament on demand, but not tournament set on demand. For me there is at least several times a year where we have a crew on the dock for practice and someone says we should just make this a tournament. Then I am usually the one who says "we cant" "I cant get a sanction that fast, and there is a penalty fee for short notice, Oh and we dont have a safety"

    So what we need is zero notice class D tournament (boat judge only). Ok I can live with you need at least one regular judge to be "chief judge", no safety. Tournament has to have a minimum of 4 skiers to meet the Buterfield beer league requirement.

    Minimum requirement that scores count for the ranking list and promo boat gets credit.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    klindysunperchZman
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @Bruce_Butterfield no you can't make all the rules. But you will be required to bring all the beer!! B) :)
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    MattPBruce_Butterfield
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    @MattP have you really thought about the functionality needed? I don't think it is a monster undertaking but you definitely need a bit of server-side programming to make this work.

    I almost gave @Wish a Panda for suggesting it would be easy. Maybe it would be easy use once you hired a professional programmer to build an interface and the back end and then make it compliant for Android and Apple devices. Don't forget you're probably going to want it to speak to the AWSA database so you can sync member numbers and names. You're going to have to figure out how to convert line lengths and boat speed to zbs values. That sounds easy.

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  • raynrayn Posts: 333 Baller
    Crossfit has this notion to a degree. They have the Open which anyone can compete in and is what qualifies you for regionals. If you are not at a certified gym for your workouts, you can video your attempt and it gets voted on as to the validity and score. Seems to me that video with a boat judge could keep a lot of the honesty problems in check and make our membership more involved.
    Ray Newmark -
    BG1
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 1,900 Crazy Baller
    I guess I just don't see that it would increase membership or revenue. If you're not a member and obviously not a tournament skier, why would you pay any bucks to get a score on a list? This skier hasn't displayed any previous desire to be on a list. I think it would be really skewed to high side regardless of honesty. I could run every set conforming to this and when I hit a great day, I submit it. I have enough good days in practice to skew my scores. If these were to be used on the true ranking list, assuming the same rules were applied , some tournament skiers might be bumped out of L8, for instance, bye someone who has no intent to ski any tournament. Having said all that, it is thinking outside the box and could be a good thing.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    santangeloZman
  • TriplettTriplett Posts: 205 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @rayn I was planning on typing your exact reply as I was reading. It works pretty well in the Crossfit world. Only certified judges can approve the video, and that is an hour online course. If it is an outrageous score then you will get Crossfit looking at it. Some "pro" level athletes have had their scores pulled.

    Maybe a way to get around any course or driver discrepancies would be to weight the score differently than an actual tournament. It would be pretty easy to tell if you are cheating if you have a tournament score. AWSA could require a tournament minimum for qualification to nationals, or maybe one of these scores at a known, accurate, site with a certified driver and judge in the boat, along with video. Wouldn't be hard to do for most people.

    I would be more than happy to pay 5-10 bucks per video submission. Could be limited to number of times in a month, might get a little hard to validate scores if you get a crazy amount of scores in.
    Brent Triplett - Michigan
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,620 Mega Baller
    @LeonL I don't think "skewing toward your best" is much of a problem, as long as everyone has the same opportunity. If a rule lets you appear to accomplish something that you actually didn't, that's a serious problem. But if it simply lets you record your best days, and also lets everyone else do that, I think it's OK.

    I'm not necessarily excited about this proposal overall; just wanted to address that one point.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • TriplettTriplett Posts: 205 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @LeonL I would disagree with it not driving membership. Using Crossfit as an example, I have no chance of ever going to regionals, but I still sign up for the Open to see where I stack up against people in Michigan, the US, and the world.

    Some people just are not competitive, but I would bet there are good chunk who ski but don't want to waste every weekend spending 50 bucks for 8-12 passes, where this would be a fantastic option.

    To @Than_Bogan's point, tournament skiers are going to use this too. I don't think it would change much.
    Brent Triplett - Michigan
    skidawg
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,701 Mega Baller
    Neat out-of-the-box idea. Great comments of hurdles to address, but worthwhile discussion for sure.

    A little off topics, but could we just get an API into the AWSA databases? Then, anyone who has the time and desire to build anything to calculate whatever differently would have access to the raw data to do so? Obviously, we don't need access to private info. Just name, number, ratings, scores, rankings, etc. in a data (not website) delivery method. Heck, Just a freaking download to the rankings list and an option to pull in every round at every sanctioned event per ski year would make for interesting opportunities to crunch numbers.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    MattP
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,361 Mega Baller
    edited February 11
    I think the idea has some merit. I work every other weekend and the weekends I have off I'm not crazy about speeding at a tournament. Its really hard for me to justify burning vacation for a tournament, which I've done before. I'm not sure how many people have a similar situation.
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