2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid

HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
Below is an email sent out by Steve Garcia

As promised, please see attached our cover letter and bid, as well as the Canadian Federations letter of endorsement. Please note the bid is red-lined for ease of reference of our deviations from that provided. Please note that we have offered the entirety of the sanction fee requested, however we have minimized funds offered for “counsel meetings” and the like in favor of placing those funds into the athletic event itself. Simply, money to the athletes and judges benefit rather than on meetings, dinners and drink for others. Moreover, so as to avoid problems seen in recent events we have proposed a world leading internationally based judges panel. We have proposed 3 of the best drivers in the world so these juniors and their exceptional talents are treated to drivers equal to their talent and effort. They deserve nothing less and if our bid is accepted they shall receive nothing less. We will house all judges in luxury homes on site homes rather than cramped hotels. We will have catered meals each night for the judges and a special event each night of practice for the kids with music, food and refreshments. We will bring in different food trucks each day of for the athletes to have lunch. And Orlando is well known for its incredible food trucks. And finally, we will live stream a webcast to the world so that the efforts and talents of all are available for their friends and family who cannot make the trip to the US to watch live.


There are 3 attachments

1) Letter to Kuno Ritschard

2) LETTER OF AGREEMENT AND OBLIGATIONS FOR THE HOSTING OF THE WORLD JUNIOR WATERSKI CHAMPIONSHIPS

3) Letter of Endorsement from "Ski and Wakeboard Canada"

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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    edited February 28
    also
    Letter from Mexican Waterski and Wakeboard Federation

    This is a word file that will download.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly / DBSkis /   Denali / Eden Ski Lake  / Goode / HO Syndicate / MasterCraft / Masterline

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    MattPjayski
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,287 Historical Baller
    edited March 1
    Read through all the stuff. Initial reaction: Egad, why would anyone want to deal with
    all this crappe and put in a bid? I expect that the US sponsors of previous World events
    would have a lot of good advice, even starting back with the Okeeheelee people, who put
    on the 1989 Elite Worlds. Nice try to modify some of the obligations; good luck.
    InthedayBruce_ButterfieldMichaelGoodman
  • wtrskiorwtrskior Posts: 704 Crazy Baller
    Amazing letter from Steve Garcia!



  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,053 Crazy Baller
    I love this, we have to get away from the tail trying to wag the dog. For a second I thought this was about FIFA lol
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • skiinxsskiinxs Posts: 326 Crazy Baller
    This looks like a very well thought out attempt at reducing the bloat. I can't imagine how anyone could put on a successful event under the constraints of the original contract.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    edited March 2
    Below you will see the text of more emails that are flying around. The purpose of this is to give transparency to this process. This is cut and paste from my email so if the emails are out of order and or are confusing I apologize. I confess I have not read the whole thing so if there is some crazy schmozzle in the below text let you can comment all you want.

    Email addresses have been stipped out.

    Dear Steve

    It is all said in our Bye laws. See in my mail below which I’ve sent to you. It is now highlighted in RED.

    In Schedule 6 EXCEPTIONS you are only listing your proposal for the Officials with some remarks.

    I have no time to read through all our Rules, but I think it is at least a matter of politeness to ask the approval of USA Water Ski if you want to organise a World Championships on US Territory hosted by another Federation.

    I also don’t know what you mean with “the Can Am championships held in US and hosted by Canada? “

    Please stop arguing now and do your homework so the IWWF Executive Board can make a decision between your bid and the bid from Spain.

    Kuno

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    INTERNATIONAL WATERSKI & WAKEBOARD FEDERATION
    Kuno Ritschard, President
    Postbox 564, Alte Landstrasse 19
    RE: 2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid

    Please provide me with rules which mandate a secret bidding process, as you seek to direct below, allowing IWWF to look to the needs of you all in leadership and “meetings” to the detriment of the athletes competing.

    Please provide the rule which you assert requires USA Waterski which is not involved in the event to approve the event because it is on US soil. Please also answer this direct and clear question: Did you make this same mandate of the Melnuks for the Can Am championships held in US and hosted by Canada?

    It appears that you are intent to exalt your form over the benefit of the skiers. We are harkened back to the Worlds and leadership telling women’s slalom to take another day off because you all had to have a “meeting.” What a shame. This is the reason the open bidding process is so important and we decline to play the “secret” game. Our efforts will be open and transparent as shall be your response to our efforts.

    Please note that in the Bid package there is a form for rules exclusions. I have fully completed that page as part of our proposal notwithstanding your apparent ignorance of same. Accordingly, the bid was submitted in conformity with the bid process in this regard as it pertains to “Obligations to be Honored.”

    I will deposit the $10,000.00 shortly. I will provide the other information requested shortly. And in no event later than your date mandated below.


    Subject: WG: 2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid

    Dear Steve

    I confirm receipt of your bid and the attached documents. As you know we have received also a bid from SESENA Waterski & Wakeboard Complex supported by the Spanish Federation. They have deposited the requested USD 10’000 for the Performance Guarantee and they confirm that they honour the full LAO without exceptions.

    I send you below once more the IWWF Rules for the bidding for Ttitled events. As you can find out yourself several of the requested points are not covered in your bid. Please complete your mail accordingly.

    I understand that the Canadian Federation will be the Official Host Federation. As it is on US territory we need a confirmation from USA Water Ski that they agree with this.

    In addition, your request to have an open discussion to whom the Championships should be awarded is completely against our Rules.

    To give you the possibility to present your bid as requested by the IWWF rules we will give you another deadline of 10 days – March 11, 2017.

    Best regards

    Kuno

    Here are also again our bank details to which the Performance Guarantee of USD 10’000 has to be paid:
    CREDIT SUISSE

    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    IWWF BYE LAWS - BIDDING FOR TITLED EVENTS
    Federations may bid for such events up to six years in advance of the date proposed for the event. Bids must be in writing, submitted to the President with copies to the Secretary General and the Chairman of the Council concerned. To be considered at an Annual Congress full bids with the required guarantee should arrive at least 30 days beforehand.

    Bids shall be in writing and should be supported by the following:
    -- Confirmation that the List of Obligations will be fully honoured
    -- Proposed site with maps and pictures if possible
    -- Dates of training and competition
    -- Accommodation and costs
    -- Name of proposed sponsor if known
    -- Visa requirements
    -- Any proposed entry fee and charge for tickets to the final dinner including the currency in which it will be payable.
    -- Currency used for hotel and other expenses and which credit cards will be accepted for such payments.

    Bids for events within 3 years shall be submitted in writing to the same persons with the same information's as above for approval by the Executive Board.

    Once a bid has been accepted no exceptions to the List of Obligations will be permitted unless approved by the Executive Board or Bureau.

    Any contract entered into by the organiser before the Letter of Agreement and Obligations has been signed and returned shall be at the organisers own risk.



    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    INTERNATIONAL WATERSKI & WAKEBOARD FEDERATION
    Kuno Ritschard, President


    Von: Stephen M. Garcia [mailto
    Betreff: 2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid

    As promised, please see attached our cover letter and bid, as well as the Canadian Federations letter of endorsement. Please note the bid is red-lined for ease of reference of our deviations from that provided. Please note that we have offered the entirety of the sanction fee requested, however we have minimized funds offered for “counsel meetings” and the like in favor of placing those funds into the athletic event itself. Simply, money to the athletes and judges benefit rather than on meetings, dinners and drink for others. Moreover, so as to avoid problems seen in recent events we have proposed a world leading internationally based judges panel. We have proposed 3 of the best drivers in the world so these juniors and their exceptional talents are treated to drivers equal to their talent and effort. They deserve nothing less and if our bid is accepted they shall receive nothing less. We will house all judges in luxury homes on site homes rather than cramped hotels. We will have catered meals each night for the judges and a special event each night of practice for the kids with music, food and refreshments. We will bring in different food trucks each day of for the athletes to have lunch. And Orlando is well known for its incredible food trucks. And finally, we will live stream a webcast to the world so that the efforts and talents of all are available for their friends and family who cannot make the trip to the US to watch live.

    I have included many in this email as we firmly believe an open and frank discussion of relative merits of each bid should be publically assessed. Specifically, where each bid focuses its funds, time energy and focus. Also, since our bid is open. We are hopeful that any other bids make themselves equally transparent and open for all to view. To that end I ask Scott Ellis to put this bid on SkiFly, John Horton to post it on Ball of Spray, Tom Grey on Proskiers.com and I will post it on FaceBook. What is best for the sport is best for the sport and an open and transparent dialogue will be, in our judgment, good for the sport as a whole and then the decision will be what it will be.



    cid:gamlogo_bf082000-e3fa-466c-b948-60e5e5aba91b.jpg



    Jim Grew
    6:38 AM (3 hours ago)



    Stephen M. Garcia
    Attachments6:38 AM (3 hours ago)

    to jimhgrewjr, kritschard, bcrowley, bcorson, executive, gill, Drew, fontsergio, John, Dana, leighcityspree, alinef, Scot, lymanland, Ricardo, U21ALL
    Thank you Jim.

    From: Jim Grew
    Subject: Re: 2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid

    USA-WS will "approve the tournament". The Can Am is now a biennial tournament between USA and Canada that does not require IWWF approval nor is governed by the IWWF. It is sanctioned by either Canada or the USA depending on its location. It is just a standard tournament taking place sometimes in Canada, sometimes in the U.S. Just this year we started alternating hosts (Canada/USA) every two years. Jim, USA-WS immediate past president


    Subject: AW: 2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid
    Dear Steve

    It is all said in our Bye laws. See in my mail below which I’ve sent to you. It is now highlighted in RED.

    In Schedule 6 EXCEPTIONS you are only listing your proposal for the Officials with some remarks.

    I have no time to read through all our Rules, but I think it is at least a matter of politeness to ask the approval of USA Water Ski if you want to organise a World Championships on US Territory hosted by another Federation.

    I also don’t know what you mean with “the Can Am championships held in US and hosted by Canada? “

    Please stop arguing now and do your homework so the IWWF Executive Board can make a decision between your bid and the bid from Spain.

    Kuno

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    INTERNATIONAL WATERSKI & WAKEBOARD FEDERATION
    Kuno Ritschard, President

    www.iwwfed.com www.waterskiandwakeboardworldcup.com

    Von: Stephen M. Garcia
    Betreff: RE: 2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid

    Please provide me with rules which mandate a secret bidding process, as you seek to direct below, allowing IWWF to look to the needs of you all in leadership and “meetings” to the detriment of the athletes competing.

    Please provide the rule which you assert requires USA Waterski which is not involved in the event to approve the event because it is on US soil. Please also answer this direct and clear question: Did you make this same mandate of the Melnuks for the Can Am championships held in US and hosted by Canada?

    It appears that you are intent to exalt your form over the benefit of the skiers. We are harkened back to the Worlds and leadership telling women’s slalom to take another day off because you all had to have a “meeting.” What a shame. This is the reason the open bidding process is so important and we decline to play the “secret” game. Our efforts will be open and transparent as shall be your response to our efforts.

    Please note that in the Bid package there is a form for rules exclusions. I have fully completed that page as part of our proposal notwithstanding your apparent ignorance of same. Accordingly, the bid was submitted in conformity with the bid process in this regard as it pertains to “Obligations to be Honored.”

    I will deposit the $10,000.00 shortly. I will provide the other information requested shortly. And in no event later than your date mandated below.

    From: Kuno Ritschard [mailto:kritschard@iwsf.ch]
    Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2017 6:49 AM
    To: Stephen M. Garcia

    Von: Stephen M. Garcia
    Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. Februar 2017 22:48

    Betreff: 2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid

    As promised, please see attached our cover letter and bid, as well as the Canadian Federations letter of endorsement. Please note the bid is red-lined for ease of reference of our deviations from that provided. Please note that we have offered the entirety of the sanction fee requested, however we have minimized funds offered for “counsel meetings” and the like in favor of placing those funds into the athletic event itself. Simply, money to the athletes and judges benefit rather than on meetings, dinners and drink for others. Moreover, so as to avoid problems seen in recent events we have proposed a world leading internationally based judges panel. We have proposed 3 of the best drivers in the world so these juniors and their exceptional talents are treated to drivers equal to their talent and effort. They deserve nothing less and if our bid is accepted they shall receive nothing less. We will house all judges in luxury homes on site homes rather than cramped hotels. We will have catered meals each night for the judges and a special event each night of practice for the kids with music, food and refreshments. We will bring in different food trucks each day of for the athletes to have lunch. And Orlando is well known for its incredible food trucks. And finally, we will live stream a webcast to the world so that the efforts and talents of all are available for their friends and family who cannot make the trip to the US to watch live.

    I have included many in this email as we firmly believe an open and frank discussion of relative merits of each bid should be publically assessed. Specifically, where each bid focuses its funds, time energy and focus. Also, since our bid is open. We are hopeful that any other bids make themselves equally transparent and open for all to view. To that end I ask Scott Ellis to put this bid on SkiFly, John Horton to post it on Ball of Spray, Tom Grey on Proskiers.com and I will post it on FaceBook. What is best for the sport is best for the sport and an open and transparent dialogue will be, in our judgment, good for the sport as a whole and then the decision will be what it will be.


    [cid:gamlogo_bf082000-e3fa-466c-b948-60e5e5aba91b.jpg]

    Stephen Garcia


    Attachments area

    Stephen M. Garcia
    Attachments6:52 AM (3 hours ago)


    Hi Steve,
    I will get you the approval letter by Tuesday of next week once back in the office.

    BOB CROWLEY, Executive Director

    Subject: RE: 2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid

    Thank you Jim.

    From: Jim Grew
    Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 6:39 AM

    I have included many in this email as we firmly believe an open and frank discussion of relative merits of each bid should be publically assessed. Specifically, where each bid focuses its funds, time energy and focus. Also, since our bid is open. We are hopeful that any other bids make themselves equally transparent and open for all to view. To that end I ask Scott Ellis to put this bid on SkiFly, John Horton to post it on Ball of Spray, Tom Grey on Proskiers.com and I will post it on FaceBook. What is best for the sport is best for the sport and an open and transparent dialogue will be, in our judgment, good for the sport as a whole and then the decision will be what it will be.




    2 Attachments



    Attachments8:53 AM (1 hour ago)


    I am saddened, although not necessarily surprised, to see your concession below that there are no "rules" such as you asserted in your email of a few days past in an effort to "spank me down.". When you cite to non-existent rules in support of your monarchy's declarations of what is compelling, you once again serve to underscore the need of transparency of process with that involving the IWWF hierarchy.

    The fact of the matter is our bid reflects a unilateral focus on the skiers and their event rather than first class travel for officers etc of IWWF, 24 hour a day limousine service mandated by the bid for you, and the provision of alcohol at dinners to council members in lieu of spending the money on the athletes themselves. Regardless, as you approved with the U21 we had here when you had nowhere to have it on six weeks notice, our bid exceptions are are well within rule under the "exceptions" page.

    Our bid also reflects having knowledgeable daily participants in the sport picking the best judges and drivers for the benefit of the athletes rather than you as one who has no meaningful, current and/or day to day understanding of the intricacies of that which actually faces the athletes in this day and age, picking unqualified judges and drivers based on their political affiliation with you. Our process is transparently better for the athletes as opposed to your process which is better for IWWF politics. We make no apology for putting the athletes ahead of your self-interest and the self-interests of others in leadership. Our process will avoid the debacle of judging in Chile and the debacle of driving at elite worlds which left one jumper maimed for life and the jumpers having two totally different working boats in the same world championship event due to an inability to recognize how to properly operate the boat. And if you are a) unaware of what I am addressing and/or b) so unknowledgeable that you do not understand the impact of remapping the boat mid event-well you prove my point. You are not qualified to pick top flight judges and drivers without regard to politics which serves your, and others in the IWWF hierarchy, agenda.

    Further, of course I have been communicating with Bob and Jeff Surdej and had you made any effort in this regard whatsoever you would have learned that I have extended for week, no months, the courtesy of advisement of intent to USA Waterski. Your suggestion of courtesy is once again a comment of ignorance on your part in favor of advancing untruths. Regardless, as you know USA Waterski has now supported our bid in two different emails to you of this morning.

    Finally, there will be transparency of this process at least in my dealings and efforts. I will get beat up on Ski Fly and the like for the effort to compel IWWF to focus on the actual athletes rather than their own vacations and agenda but so be it. I believe in the athletes, the benefits of this sport in its pure sense and those with whom I join in making this bid enough to take the public beating to do the right thing. We are not doing it for LOC profit, or vacations to foreign lands paid for by the athletes we are supposed to serve. Rather we give freely of our time, energy and effort for the pureness of the sport. Nothing more.

    From: Kuno Ritschard
    Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 1:40 AM
    To: Stephen M. Garcia
    Subject: AW: 2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid

    Dear Steve

    It is all said in our Bye laws. See in my mail below which I've sent to you. It is now highlighted in RED.

    In Schedule 6 EXCEPTIONS you are only listing your proposal for the Officials with some remarks.

    I have no time to read through all our Rules, but I think it is at least a matter of politeness to ask the approval of USA Water Ski if you want to organise a World Championships on US Territory hosted by another Federation.

    I also don't know what you mean with "the Can Am championships held in US and hosted by Canada? "

    Please stop arguing now and do your homework so the IWWF Executive Board can make a decision between your bid and the bid from Spain.

    Kuno

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    INTERNATIONAL WATERSKI & WAKEBOARD FEDERATION
    Kuno Ritschard,
    www.iwwfed.com www.waterskiandwakeboardworldcup.com

    Von: Stephen M. Garcia
    Gesendet: Mittwoch, 1. März 2017 16:10
    An: Kuno Ritschard
    Betreff: RE: 2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid

    Please provide me with rules which mandate a secret bidding process, as you seek to direct below, allowing IWWF to look to the needs of you all in leadership and "meetings" to the detriment of the athletes competing.

    Please provide the rule which you assert requires USA Waterski which is not involved in the event to approve the event because it is on US soil. Please also answer this direct and clear question: Did you make this same mandate of the Melnuks for the Can Am championships held in US and hosted by Canada?

    It appears that you are intent to exalt your form over the benefit of the skiers. We are harkened back to the Worlds and leadership telling women's slalom to take another day off because you all had to have a "meeting." What a shame. This is the reason the open bidding process is so important and we decline to play the "secret" game. Our efforts will be open and transparent as shall be your response to our efforts.

    Please note that in the Bid package there is a form for rules exclusions. I have fully completed that page as part of our proposal notwithstanding your apparent ignorance of same. Accordingly, the bid was submitted in conformity with the bid process in this regard as it pertains to "Obligations to be Honored."

    I will deposit the $10,000.00 shortly. I will provide the other information requested shortly. And in no event later than your date mandated below.

    From: Kuno Ritschard
    Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2017 6:49 AM
    To: Stephen M. Garcia

    Subject: WG: 2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid

    Dear Steve

    I confirm receipt of your bid and the attached documents. As you know we have received also a bid from SESENA Waterski & Wakeboard Complex supported by the Spanish Federation. They have deposited the requested USD 10'000 for the Performance Guarantee and they confirm that they honour the full LAO without exceptions.

    I send you below once more the IWWF Rules for the bidding for Ttitled events. As you can find out yourself several of the requested points are not covered in your bid. Please complete your mail accordingly.

    I understand that the Canadian Federation will be the Official Host Federation. As it is on US territory we need a confirmation from USA Water Ski that they agree with this.

    In addition, your request to have an open discussion to whom the Championships should be awarded is completely against our Rules.

    To give you the possibility to present your bid as requested by the IWWF rules we will give you another deadline of 10 days - March 11, 2017.

    www.iwwfed.com www.waterskiandwakeboardworldcup.com

    Von: Stephen M. Garcia
    Gesendet: Dienstag, 28. Februar 2017 22:48

    Betreff: 2018 Junior World Championships, Isles of Lake Hancock, Orlando Florida Bid

    As promised, please see attached our cover letter and bid, as well as the Canadian Federations letter of endorsement. Please note the bid is red-lined for ease of reference of our deviations from that provided. Please note that we have offered the entirety of the sanction fee requested, however we have minimized funds offered for "counsel meetings" and the like in favor of placing those funds into the athletic event itself. Simply, money to the athletes and judges benefit rather than on meetings, dinners and drink for others. Moreover, so as to avoid problems seen in recent events we have proposed a world leading internationally based judges panel. We have proposed 3 of the best drivers in the world so these juniors and their exceptional talents are treated to drivers equal to their talent and effort. They deserve nothing less and if our bid is accepted they shall receive nothing less. We will house all judges in luxury homes on site homes rather than cramped hotels. We will have catered meals each night for the judges and a special event each night of practice for the kids with music, food and refreshments. We will bring in different food trucks each day of for the athletes to have lunch. And Orlando is well known for its incredible food trucks. And finally, we will live stream a webcast to the world so that the efforts and talents of all are available for their friends and family who cannot make the trip to the US to watch live.

    I have included many in this email as we firmly believe an open and frank discussion of relative merits of each bid should be publically assessed. Specifically, where each bid focuses its funds, time energy and focus. Also, since our bid is open. We are hopeful that any other bids make themselves equally transparent and open for all to view. To that end I ask Scott Ellis to put this bid on SkiFly, John Horton to post it on Ball of Spray, Tom Grey on Proskiers.com and I will post it on FaceBook. What is best for the sport is best for the sport and an open and transparent dialogue will be, in our judgment, good for the sport as a whole and then the decision will be what it will be.



    [cid:gamlogo_bf082000-e3fa-466c-b948-60e5e5aba91b.jpg]

    Stephen Garcia


    Attachments area

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly / DBSkis /   Denali / Eden Ski Lake  / Goode / HO Syndicate / MasterCraft / Masterline

    O'Brien / Performance Ski and Surf / PTM Edge / Stokes / Reflex / Radar / Wakeye

  • wtrskiorwtrskior Posts: 704 Crazy Baller
    how Kuno is still involved in this sport is the most amazing thing.

    I'll never forget seeing his frowning face being escorted all over the pan-am park in Toronto during the finals. Like he was the last king of scotland. Totally ridiculous

    again Kudos to Steve Garcia for sharing and being so blunt. I'm not sure I agree with his approach because it likely wont get him any further ahead but things need to change.
    MattP9400
  • skier2788skier2788 Posts: 643 Crazy Baller
    And I thought AWSA had problems.... Kinda makes me happy I am not good enough to compete in any IWWF stuff.
    Travis Torley
    Broussard
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,046 Mega Baller
    Kudos to Steve Garcia for shining the light on this political BS. It is obvious that our complaints against USAWS are minor in comparison to IWWF. Reform is long overdue.
    If it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.
    9400
  • WishWish Posts: 6,744 Mega Baller
    Feeling very sorry for the pros and even more so for the youth. Sad.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 344 Baller
    I applaud Steve and the crew at Isles for there open and honest bid process. I also give kudos to the fact that they want to move money into the athlete pool. A judge does not need a limousine service at there Beckin call. This sport has been stagnant for some time now and for Kuno to put these type of demands on the bid is crazy. He's lucky there is more then one bid.
    Dave Macchi / Nautique promo team member
    brody
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @dave2ball just a clarification - I've attended several of these IWWF events as a judge and I can assure you that there has never been a limo available 24hr a day at our beck and call. The transportation comments made are about the IWWF governing board and NOT tournament officials.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    unksskisskidawg
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 344 Baller
    edited March 3
    It's in the bid. It was copied and pasted.

    The fact of the matter is our bid reflects a unilateral focus on the skiers and their event rather than first class travel for officers etc of IWWF, 24 hour a day limousine service mandated by the bid for you, and the provision of alcohol at dinners to council.

    Either way the board or president or officers does need a limo service. Just my .02.
    Dave Macchi / Nautique promo team member
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @dave2ball again just to make sure people don't get the wrong impression the copy/paste section you posted just above talks about "officers etc of IWWF" and a "24 hour a day limo service" for Kuno. Nowhere in that bid or the original contract language does any of that apply for "a judge". You specifically said "a judge" doesn't need a limo service and I agree. But as "a judge" I can assure you I have paid 100% of my own airfare and unless you call a bus to/from the lake a limo service the comments above do not refer to any of the officials working the tournament.

    Officers of IWWF are NOT officials who make up the drivers, judges or scorers of the tournament itself.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    Wish
  • DirtDirt Posts: 1,435 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I don't know much about it other than a story from a worlds competitor who suffered the delay for a meeting, mentioned in the email. She will probably never attend another event until that kind of thing stops happening.

    I support the goals stated in Drew's post and the event being hosted in Winter Garden. The webcast promised in the bid will allow the whole world to watch the event.
    I learned everything I know not to do from Horton
    drew
  • dave2balldave2ball Posts: 344 Baller
    @klindy I'm not going to get into a pissing match over this. I am fully aware of the fact that judges and so forth don't get a car service. I was involved in the last isles under 21 event. My point was the limo was a unnecessary expense where that money could of been put to better use in the past.
    Dave Macchi / Nautique promo team member
  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,080 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I agree with @Dirt
    Mr. Mom is Horton's favorite movie!
    drew
  • DirtDirt Posts: 1,435 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Horton I think more people will read and respond to this thread if you delete the long emails you pasted in and make a link to them. Most people will start to scroll down (especially on a phone or tablet), lose interest and hit exit without reading it.
    The post at the top of the thread and drew's sum it up well.
    I learned everything I know not to do from Horton
    drew
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    @Dirt I am just the messenger. Less I do in this case the better.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly / DBSkis /   Denali / Eden Ski Lake  / Goode / HO Syndicate / MasterCraft / Masterline

    O'Brien / Performance Ski and Surf / PTM Edge / Stokes / Reflex / Radar / Wakeye

  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,287 Historical Baller
    Probably a 'phat chance' that the bid will succeed. However, the alternative is to put on a
    world-class junior event that will outshine the actual Worlds. I would be willing to help.
    Bruce_ButterfielddrewMattPWish
  • liquid dliquid d Posts: 795 Crazy Baller
    Drew, Steve, and their crew will host a top notch event! Good Luck, and I'm sure all of Central Florida will be on hand to watch.
    drew
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    There are a bunch more emails. It is painful. Would anyone like to clean it all up and repost it? I do not have the time to keep up with this. If you want to do it, shoot me an email and I will forward everything I have. Horton@BallOfSpray . com

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Connelly / DBSkis /   Denali / Eden Ski Lake  / Goode / HO Syndicate / MasterCraft / Masterline

    O'Brien / Performance Ski and Surf / PTM Edge / Stokes / Reflex / Radar / Wakeye

  • LLUSALLUSA Posts: 206 Solid Baller
    Garcia Inc. sent out an email withdrawing there bid and promising to hold a cash event with the revenue it would have taken to host Jr World
    LLUSA, Sr Driver, AWSA Board of Directors, Towboat Committee,Lake Owner
    WishskidawgBruce_Butterfield
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,053 Crazy Baller
    At some point folks are just going to start holding events and not even bother sanctioning them. What does IWWF even give us for our money?
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    HortonThomas_GustafsonBruce_Butterfield
  • John BrooksJohn Brooks Posts: 270 Crazy Baller
    I have often felt like there is little or no good reason for AWSA to have an affiliation with IWWF. It does not sound like it provides any benefit to our kids or athletes. The commentary from IWWF I have read hear seems to confirm, at least in my mind, why we would not want to go through the political gymnastics required to host these type events. If the group organized by Steve are willing to put on a high end event, to the benefit of the athletes, outside the scope of the IWWF, it sounds like it would be well attended by the high level of athletes intended to be attracted.
    HortonBruce_ButterfieldMattP
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,287 Historical Baller
    If it is to be a ca$h event for Juniors (U17, U13), for skiers who can't take $ prize money,
    such as NCAA rules, the alternative would be scholarships, or maybe just paying the
    $$ to parents. Could maybe combine with an event for non-juniors, or not. If the IWWF
    decides to be a pain, then just make it a Class E, not E/L/R.
  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,879 Moderator
    @Edbrazil NCAA does not govern the NCWSA. "Pro" money in a different sport is within NCAA rules. Though making it a Scholarship that Ian earmakrked for higher education Ian not a bad thing. Who cares if it is ELR if the kids want to be there to have fun and ski against the best they will come for a C and it will be run to the standards of an R. Steve always has top notch I officals.
    Wish
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,287 Historical Baller
    edited March 9
    @mattp True about NCAA and NCWSA. But, many water skiers may participate in sports
    in college that are governed by the NCAA. Maybe not currently the case, but you couldn't
    be a "professional" athlete and participate in NCAA sports, even though you earned $$
    in another sport, best as I recall from years back.

    Story from way back: Warren Witherell (rip) was also a snow skier. They were trying to
    make trouble for him about water skiing, and competing against "professional" athletes,
    like the Cypress Gardens skiers. I remember that Bill Clifford came down on his side, with
    pretending not to know what a "professional" water skier was. An old-old AWSA Rule was
    in existence at the time (Rule 1.03?), that stated there was no distinction between amateur
    and professional.

    Note: snow skiing was supposed to be an "amateur" sport not all that many years ago.
    Avery Brundage kept Karl Schranz out of the 1972 Winter Olympics.
  • liquid dliquid d Posts: 795 Crazy Baller
    I knew of a few instances Baseball players who signed minor league contracts still competed in Football.......so , i went and found this.....Wow...very interesting reading!

    1. Cost of attendance. The NCAA and universities spin this as additional scholarship money, not a payment stipend. And while semantically that's true, just a decade ago, the NCAA argued in court that cost-of-attendance stipends were a form of "pay for play" and a threat to amateurism. Cost of attendance is the estimated extra money of the price to attend a particular college, as determined by financial aid offices. By 2015, many schools were providing all or some of their athletes with a couple extra thousand dollars a year through cost of attendance. Some coaches publicly worried that other schools' cost of attendance numbers were inflated for competitive reasons and the money would impact recruiting. One year into cost of attendance, there are virtually no stories about players choosing schools due to the extra stipend.
    2. Pell Grants. The federal government provides financial aid to students who show a need for money to attend college. The maximum Pell Grant award in 2016-17 will be $5,815 per student. Since lots of college football and basketball players come from low-income homes, many of them receive some Pell Grant money. For instance, the University of Alabama had 131 athletes receive $566,495 in federal aid during 2012-13 (average of $4,324 per athlete). Slightly more than half of those Alabama athletes played football. Under NCAA rules, an athlete who receives a Pell Grant may also receive cost of attendance or the value of a full scholarship plus the Pell Grant, whichever is greater.
    3. Pro money in a different sport. In the NCAA's confusing world of amateurism, you can be deemed an amateur in one sport while clearly a professional in another. A pro athlete paid in one sport can simultaneously play college athletics in a different sport and receive a scholarship. It doesn't happen much, but the sport most frequently impacted is a college football player who also participates in minor league baseball. In 2010, Kyle Parker was Clemson's quarterback after he got a $1.4 million signing bonus from the Colorado Rockies. Russell Wilson had a $200,000 signing bonus with the Rockies, some of which he had to return to the club when he left to play quarterback at Wisconsin. Roscoe Crosby had a $1.75 million signing bonus from the Kansas City Royals while a Clemson wide receiver in the early 2000s.
    4. Bowl gifts/postseason awards. If a booster gives a player a gift, that's an NCAA no-no. If a bowl game gives a player a gift, this is called a postseason award. A football player can get gifts valued up to $550 from a bowl and up to $400 by his school. There are even bowl gift suites and Visa gift cards for players. In all sports, the NCAA allows schools to give awards to underclassmen (maximum value $225 each) and seniors ($425) for annual participation. There are awards for winning a national championship ($415 maximum per player) or winning a conference regular season/postseason championship ($325). If you win a national award such as the Heisman Trophy, that award is worth up to $325. If you're the MVP of a bowl game or all-star contest, you can get up to $350 in an award. And if you make special contributions to your team's season -- examples cited by the NCAA rulebook are best scholar-athlete, most improved player, most minutes played and most valuable player -- your max award value is $175.

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    .
    5. Free injury insurance. An NCAA athlete can borrow against his or her future earnings from a lender for loss-of-value insurance in case of a serious injury. In recent years, as the NCAA lessened some restrictions, some schools have paid $50,000 to $60,000 for a very small number of elite football players to get this insurance premium for free. Jameis Winston and Marcus Mariota are among the players who got their premium paid for by their school. Some coaches complained this is a recruiting advantage by offering the possibility of a premium during the recruiting process.
    ncaa-logo.jpg
    The NCAA has some ways for athletes to bring in money. USATSI
    6. Prize money based on performance. In tennis, a player can receive up to $10,000 per year in prize money before or during college. The prize money can only come from the sponsor of an event in which the player participates. Once the $10,000 is reached, NCAA rules state the player can still get additional money if it doesn't exceed his or her necessary expenses for participating in the event. In sports other than tennis, an athlete can get prize money from a sponsor based on his or her finish as long as the amount doesn't exceed the cost to participate.
    7. Money for training, international competition. An athlete may get expenses paid for by the United States Olympic Committee to cover development training, coaching, facility usage, equipment, apparel, supplies, comprehensive health insurance, travel, and room and board.
    Expenses for Olympic tours and exhibitions are allowed if the college athlete doesn't miss class time or conflict with university competition. Athletes can receive apparel, clothes, footwear and other commemorative items for participating in the Olympics or another international event through a national governing body. A company or local community members may provide expenses and other non-monetary benefits to an athlete's family to attend national team competitions.
    8. Student assistance fund. The NCAA provides money to each school to assist athletes who have special financial needs. Some of this can go for needs such as clothing. Those suits you see players wearing before games? They're sometimes paid for from this fund. In addition, the NCAA recently began allowing schools to pay travel expenses for players' families to attend the men's and women's basketball Final Four and the College Football Playoff. The $3,000-$4,000 is meant to cover transportation, hotel and meals for two family members per athlete.
    9. Outside employment. The NCAA allows players to have paying jobs. They may rarely have the time to do so, but it is permitted if the work is performed at an amount comparable to the going rate in that area for similar services. The payment isn't supposed to be due to athletic ability or publicity for the employer due to the athlete's presence. An athlete can be employed by his or university, another school, or a private organization to work in a camp or clinic as a counselor.
    10. Self-employment. This NCAA rule still says an athlete may establish a business only if his or her name, photo, appearance or athletic reputation are not used to promote the business. But the NCAA now tackles this issue on a case-by-case basis and has said it will grant appropriate waivers if athletes have similar opportunities as other students for entrepreneurial aspirations. Most famously, Minnesota wrestler Joel Bauman tested the NCAA in 2013 by promoting that he was an NCAA wrestler on a music video he produced. Bauman declined to remove his name from any songs and eliminate any promotion of his status as an NCAA athlete. He got declared ineligible, a firestorm erupted, and he brilliantly turned the publicity into a marketing job.
    "I knew what I was doing the whole time," Bauman said in "Indentured: The Story of the Rebellion Against the NCAA," a recent book about the college sports industry. "The NCAA is pretty predictable."
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