HO Syndicate / Edge Boot notes

HortonHorton Posts: 22,584 Administrator
edited June 8 in Skis Fins Bindings
For the last 2 years or so I have skied with the Reflex System and a white cuff boot and R Style rear boot. This spring I have been skiing with the HO Syndicate Hard Shell and the Edge Hard Shell systems. The 3 systems all use the Silvretta mechanical release.

The Reflex version has been the industry standard for decades. It is the choice of more elite skiers than any other binding product. The HO Syndicate Hard Shell and the Edge are a refinement of that classic Reflex design. There are a number of small improvements to the plate and how the boot fits on the plate that arguably make the new systems superior to the Reflex. Those changes are cool but for me IT IS ALL ABOUT THE BOOT.

The actual shell Edge and HO are using is what gets me excited. The shape of the shell simply fits my foot better. The biggest difference to me is from the ball of my foot forward. The HO / Edge boot gives a snug positive fit down there by my toes.

It is hard to measure but I suspect that the Edge and HO shells are more pliable and flex more evenly then the Reflex white cuff boot. I also LOVE the buckles. I get the same fit every time.

So yes I really really like the new boots. To be fair to Reflex, a different liner might solve my fit issue and I have not skied in the new Reflex Supershell system. I should also mention that my all-time best tournament score was with a Reflex White cuff.

So what is the difference between the Edge and the HO?? There are two real differences. The HO liner is far superior, the Edge is less expensive.

Get your Edge System at http://www.edgewaterski.com/

Get your Syndicate Hard Shell at PerSki or HOSports.com

Want to stay with the industry standard? Get it at http://reflexwaterskiusa.com/

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Perfomance Ski and Surf / PTM Edge / Stokes / Reflex / Radar / Wakeye

 

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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 22,584 Administrator

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Babe's / Centurion Boats / Connelly / DBSkisGoode / HO Syndicate / Mapple / Masterline / O'Brien /
    Perfomance Ski and Surf / PTM Edge / Stokes / Reflex / Radar / Wakeye

     

    Ralph Lee
  • OldboyIIOldboyII Posts: 333 Baller
    edited June 8
    This year I started Syndicate hardshell. This is my first plastic/releasable binding. Edging the ski and consequently cross course speed takes much less efforts. Cerrtainly will stay with hardshell for future.
    My question:
    Are there any recommendation for upper buckle: how tight it should be fastened?
  • jhughesjhughes Posts: 587 Crazy Baller
    I'm really enjoying the new system as well, coming from a rubber boot. I thought the acclimation period would be way more difficult but it's nothing. Clearly an upgrade for me.
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,020 Crazy Baller
    Can anyone comment on the Edge system ability to stop forward flexion without the achililes strap?
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • OldboyIIOldboyII Posts: 333 Baller
    edited June 8
    @disland inside the back of the boot there are two elements looking like "Swallow's tail"
    When cuff is flexing forward these elements go towards each other.
    When they meet - boot becomes harder.
  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,681 Moderator
    edited June 8
  • OldboyIIOldboyII Posts: 333 Baller
    @MattP African one is not a real swallow, it is more a sparrow )))
    MattP
  • HortonHorton Posts: 22,584 Administrator
    @OldboyII I believe that the HO guys* would say that the way the shell and the liner work together provides enough resistance to protect your achilles provided that your release setting is not over tight. If you chose the Edge system you might want to look at a upgraded Intuition liner for comfort and to mimic the way the HO liner works with that shell.

    If you are really focused on achilles protection then that may be a key selling point for the Reflex. I feel safe in the HO and Edge products but we all have to make our own safety judgements.

    *Holy crap I am not actually speaking for HO. If I got this wrong I apologize.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Babe's / Centurion Boats / Connelly / DBSkisGoode / HO Syndicate / Mapple / Masterline / O'Brien /
    Perfomance Ski and Surf / PTM Edge / Stokes / Reflex / Radar / Wakeye

     

    spicolitjm
  • OldboyIIOldboyII Posts: 333 Baller
    edited June 8
    @Horton Thanks. If I understand correctly - upper buckle is more about release than performance?
    The higher/stronger release is set, the more locked upper buckle should be?
  • OldboyIIOldboyII Posts: 333 Baller
    edited June 10
    Not like Reflex neither HO nor Edge offer parts of their hardshells (plate separately). It saddens. Emailed both to Edge and Perfski (where I bought it) - answer is negative.
    I keep two skis on two different locations and so I have to buy another full complect or think about alternative.
  • hogexpresshogexpress Posts: 92 Baller
    I recently switched to HO hard shell after many years on RS-1s. Incredible how comfortable and snug the boot is. My foot doesn't slide at all inside the boot. I have so much more control over the ski. While I haven't released out of it....yet, I was curious why HO didn't put the strap at the heel to limit the forward travel of the upper cuff?? Seems to me that would affect the releasability of the boot?
    Keith Sims - South Carolina
  • jhughesjhughes Posts: 587 Crazy Baller
    Edge will sell you a separate plate.
  • OldboyIIOldboyII Posts: 333 Baller
    edited June 10
    @jhughes they do not sell plates by itself, as it follows from their answer to my email.
    As well as Perfski
    @hogexpress I already had a chance to pass release test in OTF. The release is very nice and smooth and happens exactly in time when needed, not like rubber that could go only halfway (in some situations)
  • DaveLemonsDaveLemons Posts: 199 Baller
    @hogexpress the boot itself is designed to limit the amount of forward movement before release. The tabs on the inside that your heal slides past are for that purpose.
    davestaxidermystudio.com
    skihart
  • hogexpresshogexpress Posts: 92 Baller
    Thanks Dave, I'm assuming u are referring to the lumps/blisters in the interior of the liner that cup my heal and Achilles so nicely. Most comfortable boot I've ever had. Didn't think of that.
    Keith Sims - South Carolina
  • perfskiperfski Posts: 54 Water Ski Industry Professional
    @OldboyII if you want message me and let me know what you are looking for plate size / foot forward boot you are needing...I'll inquire further up the food chain at HO. But from my understanding they ordered all the boot / binding systems 1-1 for the first year. But never hurts to ask...and go a bit deeper than the typical customer service call / email.
    OldboyIIMark_Matis
  • OldboyIIOldboyII Posts: 333 Baller
    @perfski Thanks! Sent message.
  • jhughesjhughes Posts: 587 Crazy Baller
    My hardshell experiment period ended today on slalom. By this time last year I had run countless -28's (and actually almost ran -32 just this March on rubber, 5.5) and I am just not running buoys on this baby. The system is very comfortable, as in "getting used to it" is not hard to do. I'm used to it completely and it "feels" fantastic. The odd thing is that it has taken away my 2/4 turn and my on-side wake cross angle. Isn't that crazy? 1/3/5 are terrific and I feel like my off-side wake cross is better than ever but on-side is just totally missing/not present. This includes turn-in as well which is probably killing me the most.

    The other thing, just in the very back of my mind is that I don't think I'll ever trust this style and I think that is affecting my intensity. As in I could put in the work and tweaks to make 2/4 work better but I'll never trust it fully so it's back to rubber for me. I will move the Syndicate HS over to my trick ski for now.
  • Mark_MatisMark_Matis Posts: 764 Crazy Baller
    Have you tried rotating the rear boot, @jhughes ? Or is that not an option on Silvretta-style systems? Rotating the rear toe outward should improve your onside turn.
  • jhughesjhughes Posts: 587 Crazy Baller
    @Mark_Matis I'm using a RTP. I can't get my foot in any further because of the release which may be part of the problem, but again that's an issue in itself for me.
  • OldboyIIOldboyII Posts: 333 Baller
    edited June 14
    @jhughes I am not an experienced skier, nevertheless I will allow myself to make a guess.
    HS as any hardboot is very sensitive to personal anatomic features.
    Similar to alpine ski boots. If skier has bow or knock knee leg (even not noticeable) the ski may be loaded on one edge more that the other because HS cuff is strictly follows lower leg

    Before you make final decision you may visit decent alpine workshop to check your front leg aligment.

    My first starts in HS was terrible before I understood that some canting is needed.
    The knee of my front leg (lff) is a few degrees outside therefore outside edge was loaded more (ski was not exactly flat in neutral position). Onside was Ok, ofside was nothing, water start needed enormous amount of concentration.
    Since HS boot hasn't a canting options I put a 3 mm hard rubber gaskets between plate and ski (on the right side of the plate). 3 pieces with a hole for screws.
    It solved all. When I will be closer to ski I will post a photo.
    You may try it: check where your knee is pointing to - inside or outside and place gaskets on opposite side. It costs nothing, why not to try?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 22,584 Administrator
    @OldboyII I am an experienced skier and I will tell you that I do not know any advanced skiers who cant their hardshells. Unless a skier has significant orthopedic issues I think this is not a good idea. It is a Fool's Errand.

    You have to understand that modern hardshells are not really HARD. THey are designed to be pliable. The HO Syndicate, Edge System, Reflex and Goode PowerShells are all pliable boots.

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    Babe's / Centurion Boats / Connelly / DBSkisGoode / HO Syndicate / Mapple / Masterline / O'Brien /
    Perfomance Ski and Surf / PTM Edge / Stokes / Reflex / Radar / Wakeye

     

  • HortonHorton Posts: 22,584 Administrator
    @jhughes I think the issue might be binding placement. The measurement between rubber and Hardshells is not always perfect. You might look at where your FOOT was in rubber and where it is in the new boot and make sure it is the same in the ski.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Babe's / Centurion Boats / Connelly / DBSkisGoode / HO Syndicate / Mapple / Masterline / O'Brien /
    Perfomance Ski and Surf / PTM Edge / Stokes / Reflex / Radar / Wakeye

     

  • JordanJordan Posts: 766 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited June 14
    While there may not be many advanced skiers who cant their hard shells, there are a ton of them who have modified their boots. I suspect that those who lower the upper shell are doing so because of their shin alignment. the lower the boot top the less effected the ski will be by a shin that is not neutral.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 22,584 Administrator
    @Jordan I understand what you're saying but I am unaware of any high-end skier who chopped down the top of their shell because of alignment. The logic that I have heard has always been about mobility or connection.

    I'm stepping into this thread and being adamant on this subject because I've seen a lot of conversation in this forum from less experienced skiers advocating equipment adjustments that I personally believe are unwise. If somebody wants to chime in and tell me the pro coach that advocates putting shims underneath the binding to correct alignment I'd like to hear about it.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Babe's / Centurion Boats / Connelly / DBSkisGoode / HO Syndicate / Mapple / Masterline / O'Brien /
    Perfomance Ski and Surf / PTM Edge / Stokes / Reflex / Radar / Wakeye

     

    MattPskialex
  • jedgelljedgell Posts: 293 Baller
    Just got my Syndicate hardshell, from Perfomance! I have a couple questions. There's no rubber pad on the bottom of the plate, is anyone putting something on it to protect the ski? The screw heads that attach the boot plate stick out and figure they'll tear up the ski. Also, I've been using Superfeet insoles in my Stradas for years would you recommend the same in these, or are they not necessary? I'll be using a R-Style rear. Thanks.
    Justin Edgell - Bozeman, MT
  • skialexskialex Posts: 518 Solid Baller
    @jedgell yes the screw heads will scratch your ski. You can redo the countersunks with the right countersunk bits, it is a delicate job it has to be done correctly in order not to hinder your safety. You can buy pads instead but pads keep the moisture between ski and plate.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 22,584 Administrator
    edited June 16
    @skialex @jedgell gell duct tape works. I know it sounds jackass but it is not

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    Perfomance Ski and Surf / PTM Edge / Stokes / Reflex / Radar / Wakeye

     

  • jedgelljedgell Posts: 293 Baller
    Cool, I'll go with duct tape.
    Justin Edgell - Bozeman, MT
    Horton
  • skialexskialex Posts: 518 Solid Baller
    @Horton yes I know but in certain brands it would leave a stain under the duct tape which to me is as bad as scratches.
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