Need more width on offside?

jdk99jdk99 Posts: 83 Baller
I'll keep it simple. I'm transitioning, carrying the handle to buoy line, back arm pressure,etc. reasonably ok.... but in offside preturn, ski rolls up on edge slams on the brakes and flies narrow. So, technique issues aside, If you had to pick one tuning variable to tweak first to get greater width into offside, what would it be? Currently running bindings back .25, otherwise Rossi settings on 15 blue vapor.

Thanks much.


  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 823 Crazy Baller
    @jdk99 -

    1.) decrease fin length
    2.) increase DFT
    3.) both (decrease FL by same amount of DFT increase)

    consider trying #1 first (.005 to .010)
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,801 Administrator
    @jdk99 boat speed & line length?

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  • jdk99jdk99 Posts: 83 Baller
    Thanks all for replies.

    @Gloersen Very helpful. Tip out. Will hold on LE sum changes til I ski it first.

    @Horton 28/34.2

    @matthewbrown Completely agree! I am certain 90+% of it is me but if I can get some assist from a setting change I'll take it. Plus I enjoy the tinkering!! I plan on video post and request for input in near future.
  • DaveDDaveD Posts: 696 Crazy Baller
    Blame the spotter, they are always screwing up.
  • jdk99jdk99 Posts: 83 Baller
    Hmmm...interesting @ToddL. For clarification: does an early COM shift forward keep the ski from moving into a steep roll angle too quickly? Watching my free skiing practice video (will post soon) it seems the ski essentially comes off the second wake, lands in the white water, then is immediately up on a steep turning edge. For the life of me I can't get a more gradual roll.

    Ironically, one of the things Ive been working on is a more rapid edge change which has lead to good progress. But now that seems to be biting me in the butt a bit.

    yes @Horton and @DaveD, I keep looking for a scapegoat...but to no avail!!!
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,321 Mega Baller
    Make sure you are getting high/wide on your gate pull out. Narrow gate will haunt you the whole pass. Narrow gate can lead to less angle and back on the ski with poor connection. Double check your gate pullout and go from there. Almost certainly a skier not the ski issue.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,733 Mega Baller
    @jdk99 Early COM shift allows for early control of speed. This allows a skier to begin decelerating while still advancing up on the boat and outbound. It really isn't the factor in your edge change roll angle.

    The nature of the load at the start of the lean will be mirrored during the release of the load at the edge change. A controlled, patient, progressive load in will result in the opportunity for a controlled, progressive release. This is what allows experienced skiers the ability to move their ski to an inside edge but not fully to a turning edge. They add to this, handle control by keeping both hands on the handle with elbows in. This allows them to be on inside edge, slowing, but still exploiting the boat's energy to get them out to the buoy line.

    Think of a spring attached to a fixed point. You can yank it down fast, but it will recoil fast and strong preventing you from holding or managing its load. Now think about slowly pulling down on that spring such that you can hold it for longer and release it more slowly. This is what I think happens when skiers talk about light on the line. They are still holding onto significant loads, but they aren't spiking them and causing a recoil of ZO.

    So, load progressively, unload progressively, allow the ski to move under you to an inside edge with both hands on the handle, move that inside hip forward and chill. As you move outbound, the boat will start to pull onto your outside shoulder/arm, this is when it is time to start to release that outside hand. Stay here a moment longer, while you slowly ski away from the handle. It should be moving ahead of you while your ski and body are moving wider from it. This is the "reach" - it is skiing away from the handle vs. pushing the handle away. As your ski and the handle separate more, the ski will naturally increase its roll angle and edge causing the turn to build and the turn radius to reduce. The ski will just turn. If all is done right, eventually, your ski and outside hip will turn back around and come together under the handle pointed for an early line to the next buoy.

    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • jdk99jdk99 Posts: 83 Baller
    Very helpful @ToddL! Thx for taking the time.

    As per suggestions above, here is a short 8 turn free skiing video at 28/34.2 where I am simply working on form , specifically to get wider. (haven't tried it in course and probably shouldn't yet!). Any input greatly appreciated.

    My thoughts as i watch: 1) stay down thru wakes, 2) longer arms offside lean, 3) weight forward preturn, 4) back arm closer to body in preturn.....and many more

    Thanks you guys. Many have posted video the last few days so I am sure you are all burnt out on commenting

  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,801 Administrator
    @jdk99I at least outside of the course you are way too narrow. Starting with your "gate" turn in you are not far enough up on the boat. This means you never swing up in either side. Lack of width hurts your ability to turn and then puts you in an odd position at the wakes. You do not need to go harder but you need to start to start from wider and then take more angle.

    Once you have some more width you also need to just hold your position through the first wake.

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  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,733 Mega Baller
    @Horton, nah. Just keep the back pinkie straight so that the hips stay forward. ;-)
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • matthewbrownmatthewbrown Posts: 340 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I agree with @Horton you've got to get more width, and to get width you will need to get the hips involved in order to get the ski on edge and accelerate without shoulder load. Right now, all your work is being done by upper body.
  • jdk99jdk99 Posts: 83 Baller
    Thanks much @matthewbrown. I suspect that your comment on hip involvement might be where I need to focus in that it wasn't even on my radar. Usually I know what needs to be done but just struggle doing it. I have to admit that with the hip thing I am clueless as to what you mean. If it's not too much to ask, could I trouble you (or anyone w insight) for just a brief explanation? Are you talking at hookup or edge change or throughout? Is there something dynamic I need to do w my hips or is it wrong positioning? Sorry for the hassle and sincerely appreciate your insight.
  • gmutgmut Posts: 198 Baller
    @jdk99 Think about hips to the handle at the end of the turn. Don't think about pulling but instead think about leaning away from the boat . Hips up,chest out, and try to keep your arms straight and elbows pinned to your vest. Lastly,you need to show some serious intensity approaching and through the wakes with your ski on edge not flat. Might seem scary at first but you will get the hang of it.
  • jdk99jdk99 Posts: 83 Baller
    thanks @gmut. I hear what your saying and will definitely work on it. I guess maybe I should rephrase my question posted to @matthewbrown above. handles to hips, hips forward, ski back to handle....those are actually things ive been working on and understand, even if I don't do them well. my confusion is this: when I look at my still shots at the first white water, I had thought i was reasonably well positioned on the ski, albeit with more work needed and not as intense as I should be. Are you guys saying that I am in fact way off on my stack at that point OR are we talking about something different, namely a hip move in initiating/driving either a) the turn or b) the edge change/cast?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,801 Administrator
    I coach bandaids. I am ok with that as long as it helps most people. For what it is worth I 100% agree with you but I just can't seem to do it.

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  • jdk99jdk99 Posts: 83 Baller
    @matthewbrown ...might be the most profound advice I've read! Gonna have to work thru it a bit in my head and on the ski but makes sense. Also fits w what I see in great skiers....static upper body, dynamic lower body. Now, to get my body to do it. Sincerely grateful for your time.
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,232 Mega Baller
    @jdk99 FWIW, I'm 100% in agreement that 90% of this issue is technique, actually more like 95%. But your description of being 1/4" behind stock is also an issue—three issues actually:
    1. 1/4" is a mile,
    2. The factory settings on that ski were already really far back, and
    3. Being that far back has you riding on just the tail of the ski which makes it turn like a school bus (making you late), slow to accelerate (making you later), and allows the boat to easily drag you more down-course than necessary (now you're so late it looks like narrow).
    Moving your bindings forward won't magically fix your late, narrow path, but it will help as you apply the excellent advice shared above. ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
  • JayproJaypro Posts: 204 Solid Baller
    @matthewbrown thank you for this. The way you present this makes it some of the most easily digested info I have read. As a 50 year old guy aspiring to 22' off I appreciate the way you present this. @Horton , this type of discussion is what helps a lot of us (me) lesser skiers find a "nugget" we can apply and improve our skiing!
  • jdk99jdk99 Posts: 83 Baller I had to post this after skiing this am. HUGE lightbulb moment upon trying @matthewbrown's advice above and I hope the advancing long liners on this site will take the time to read thru and implement that advice.

    @Horton's oft repeated advice to 'stand tall' was absolutely huge in correcting my 'dragon ass' poor stack. Importantly however, what I think I've learned thru @mattbrown's advice is that as the line shortens, it is quite possible that 'standing tall' can be overdone to the point of stiff legs that can become detrimental.

    Bear with my hypothesizing here: I think (and could be wrong), that this stiff/static position forces the skier onto the back of the ski when coming off the second wake resulting in an abrupt edge change AND too high a roll angle too early. Being back on the ski allows/forces a steeper roll angle earlier that then forces a narrow path. (bindings too far back only excerbates this! Moved my bindings forward..Thanks @skijay) With 'looser', driving, dynamic legs/knees, the transition became almost automatic and I found it much easier to get up on the front of the ski earlier which I believe prevents a premature high roll angle and allows the ski to carry outbound. Don't get me wrong, I have a long way to go but I'm thinking something big just clicked here!!

    many sincere thanks @matthewbrown and all who posted advice.
  • oneskioneski Posts: 98 Baller
    jdk99, one thing you may want to consider is keeping your shoulders more level behind the boat. Many skiers have a tendency to drop the backside shoulder down. The problem is it can cause lean lock and make it very difficult to efficiently edge change. I try to keep my shoulders level as I approach the gates (a good thought is keeping the chest pointed to pylon). This really allows your hips to keep the ski moving out in front and allows for a smooth and crisp edge, and will also allow you to ride the ski outbound to the buoy.
    Some people also equate it to snow skiing. You want to keep your shoulders level while moving your knees and hips.
  • JskiJski Posts: 11 Baller
    I strongly urge you to read The Fin Whisperer. After viewing the video it looks more like your steering the ski rather than skiing it. Most of your ski is out of contact with the water "tail heavy". 1st binding, 2nd fin, then wing-for set-up.
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