The rules are the rules?

HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
The BigDawg rules excluding @adamCaldwell got me thinking. There are times when the rules are the rules but justice seems like a gray area.

This year at Western Regionals the top seed in M4 ran the most balls but after his ride his handle was a TINY bit long. He was clearly not cheating and that extra 1/4 inch of rope did not affect his score. As an athlete he clearly deserved the win.

As a skier I say he skied the best that day and won the gold but as a judge I say he clearly scored a zero.

You could argue that we should relax the rules but where do you draw the line?

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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    edited August 5
    @klindy As I said above - as a judge I say he clearly scored a zero.

    I agree with everything you say above especially
    The goal should be to try and make the rules unambiguous and without interpretation.

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  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 1,900 Crazy Baller
    edited August 5
    That's is truly an unfortunate occurrence. However if that person skis at that level, and fails to check his handle prior to skiing, well what can you say. Crude as it sounds someone who is the top seed, he should know better. To lighten the mood (maybe) I was boat judge at the Regionals a few years back. One of the first couple of skiers off the dock scored 3 buoys. After my stint in the boat I discovered that the ACJ, while checking handles, found his to be short, called the scorer and said "his score is now zero". Talk about insult to injury. Another instance at a Big Dawg stop the chief judge said "you check 'em before you ski and I'll check 'em after you ski. If it's short there's gonna a lot of crying going on."
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    MancyHortoneyepeeler
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 1,854 Mega Baller
    edited August 5
    I'm confused about a couple of things:

    @klindy, you say the legal handle length is 4' 0". I thought it was 4' 11", plus or minus 1".

    There is a comment that says if the handle is too long, make it shorter. How? The most obvious way is to tie a knot in it. But, there are those who say that a knot in a rope will weaken it. So, would a safety or judge allow a handle with a knot in it?

    Finally, why would a short handle even need to be a means for disqualification? I know it is, but it is only hurting the skier to be too short, unless you perceive some advantage for having less slack.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 1,900 Crazy Baller
    edited August 5
    The only time the "too short" comes into play is if there is a LOC supplied handle, or commonly referred to as a "house handle". (Well you could be referring to the -4" tolerance for skier supplied handles, but I think that would be pretty rare)
    The most common way to make a handle shorter is to fid a piece of rope into the hollow braid of the handle. Fatter takes up length.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    DanE
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    edited August 5
    @MISkier you're right. I'll go back and fix the dimensions. I was writing that in the middle of calling buoys and fixing cameras.

    The example I chased was the handle scenario @Horton noted but the more important point I was trying to make was that we can have rules and they should be followed. But there should be only one clear understanding of the rule and it's application.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    Horton
  • jlittlejlittle Posts: 248 Baller
    So, every once in a while I ski with the skier this happen to and his comment to me, and I quote, "my fault for not shortening my handle". His biggest gripe was how it all went down. Not the rules. Non the less, he accepts he was responsible and he should have made sure it would measure.
    MillerTime38malski64MarkTimm
  • liquid dliquid d Posts: 795 Crazy Baller
    oooohh...and allow the ice bucket! Mine shrank just enough!
    HortonDragoJody_Seal
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,673 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    This is just a tip from experience on multi lake sites. We were at WPB one year where my wife was skiing on the main lake before I skied on the turnpike lake. I was sure my handle was good from summer records and regionals, but I checked in on her lake because it was close and I was there. It was close but clearly in tolerance.

    Well the next day I was about to ski on the other lake and for the heck of it threw my handle on the rope checker on that dock. It showed past the line long! Luckily it was not measured by the dock starter or I would not have been allowed to use it. I was confident that if it became an issue after the fact that an actual tape measure would show I was in tolerance and that the sharpie mark on the board was incorrect. Would still have been very annoying to have to borrow and handle on the dock at Nats...
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,035 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    My handle was out of tolerance - short. I was worried about how to deal with it right there. But short is OK for slalom. I was not DQed.

    I heard that the scenario at Regionals was not that clear. The handle measured OK before the ride but barely. The skier wanted to shorten it but was not allowed access to his rope by the dock starter after the measurement. After the ride it stretched to out. Complex problem. Protests and delays. Cases like this need good judgment not stricter rules.

    Eric
    BG1Than_Bogankeithh2oskier
  • DragoDrago Posts: 841 Crazy Baller
    @eleeski that's not what I heard
    Horton
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,035 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    @Drago I wasn't there or one of the judges involved. I heard it from another M4 skier who was there. I am not taking sides or making a judgment here. My point is that judgment is needed, not more pages in a rulebook.

    Eric
    Drago
  • DragoDrago Posts: 841 Crazy Baller
    @eleeski , nor was I and so did I. Unfortunately, I think if it were a different person, the outcome could have been different, and that's why maybe their shouldn't be judgement calls. Out (an hour!) after skiing is out, If the story you heard is true, then that was not at all following rules, and not allowing the skier to cram a pencil in there is a judgment call and a poor interpretation of the intent of the rule, should've been protested and the skier should've won. You don't have to get off the plane with your handle measured.
    The whole ice bucket thing (related) is not humorous ( and would've worked here). So would an hour if it was in prior to skiing (really weird rule) .
    "Personal handles shall be measured by the dock starter under the responsibility of the
    homologator, immediately before the skier skis. Once the handle is measured it will remain in the custody of the tournament officials until it is used. The Chief Judge may require skier ropes and handles to be re-measured immediately after use. Should the handle be out of tolerance following a skiers return to the dock, then it shall be retained by the tournament officials and retested after at least a one hour relaxation period. If the rope remains out of tolerance after the one hour period, the skier’s performance in that round is disqualified."
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,287 Historical Baller
    The post above quotes World Rules, which most likely have applied if the event was
    sanctioned as an "L". So, did they wait for the 1 hour period? See Homologation
    guidelines, 1c in World Rules 2017.
    Note: high tolerance is 1.50m +.025m = 1.525m.
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,053 Crazy Baller
    The use of the word "homologation" pretty much sums up the entire problem with the rules in our sport.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    MillerTime38
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    I skied this event so I was not a judge but I was there for hours and hours waiting for the final result. The skiers were told the following. The handle was just "in tolerance" before the skier skied and out after.

    I do not see how anyone thinks this is a judgement call. We need rules and I think these are clear. It sucks to be on the wrong side of the rules but a handle is the skier's responsibility.

    10.16 Slalom Equipment, Specifications, Definitions:

    Skier-Furnished Slalom Handle: The contestant may furnish his own
    handle, for which he is entirely responsible, with an attaching loop to
    attach to the tournament line, and which must comply with the handle
    section dimensions in the Appendix.
    a. The contestant's handle may be of any material.
    b. For Class E, L & R tournaments personal handles shall be measured
    by the dock starter under the supervision of the Technical Controller
    (or his designee) immediately after the skier skis. Should the handle
    be out of tolerance, the skier’s score in that round will be recorded as
    zero(See Rule 13.02.F for head to head competition).

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  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,287 Historical Baller
    I sent a note to the Chair of the Rules Committee about the apparent conflict between
    AWSA and World in a Class L event.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    @Edbrazil I am sure she will be thrilled. I am sure she has nothing else to do this week.

    The reality is at most Class C events no one measures handles. Unless a handle is VERY long no one cares. In a Class L the standard is higher and measuring after the skier's ride is the rule.

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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,620 Mega Baller
    I'm with @Horton on this. Unfortunate, but pretty clear cut. If somebody says 1/32" out, I might wonder if the measuring device is really that accurate, and if not the benefit of the doubt should go to the skier. But all of us can see a 1/4", and the line is the line, not a suggestion.

    If it happened to me, I'd be bummed, but certainly wouldn't feel cheated.

    Now, if the skier was really denied an opportunity to fix it before skiing, then that is a giant screw up by the officials and a totally different situation. But that sounds very weird and hopefully didn't happen.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    MattP
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    This is the first I've heard about the skier being denied the opportunity to fix his handle. The dock starter does not have that authority. That narrative seems dubious to me. The bottom line is a skier is responsible for his equipment.

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    By the way, my opinion has a skier is still not the same as my opinion as a judge. We all know who skied the best at Western Regionals. Unfortunately he didn't take home the gold.

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  • DragoDrago Posts: 841 Crazy Baller
    I am assuming it was an "L", in which the handles are measured before, and may be measured after.
    Everyone here is correct, depending on what rule book you use. Yikes
    (I keep my handles at 4-11)
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    edited August 11
    @Drago No man read it again. There is no grey area.

    For Class E, L & R tournaments personal handles shall be measured by the dock starter under the supervision of the Technical Controller (or his designee) immediately after the skier skis.

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  • DragoDrago Posts: 841 Crazy Baller
    2 sets of rules. Mine was IWWF. That's what Ed was referring to. With "your" rules, they shouldn't measure before, or keep the handle ( if that happened)
    I keep my handle at 4-11
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,532 Administrator
    @Drago my understanding of the pre-ski measure is that it is 100% unofficial.

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  • DragoDrago Posts: 841 Crazy Baller
    @Horton you are correct. So am I :/ p56, 1.e IWWF World Rules homologation guidelines.
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @Edbrazil I'm frankly not sure what that means.

    I've been ACJ for slalom on Wednesday and today and I know I measured a couple hundred handles. None were out of tolerance when measured after they skied (although some were close!). Skiers were able to measure their own all they wanted. I did personally fix 5 or 6 over both days. I saw a couple other get fixed too either by the skier themselves or another skier. In no case was a skier not allowed to make an adjustment if they wanted.

    When they were close I typically got some version of the "what do you think" question. I typically said "you do what you want but if it was me I wouldn't chance it". Most I fixed, some took a chance.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    Bruce_Butterfield
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,035 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    @klindy That's the judgment I think is great to see. Thanks.

    Eric
  • klindyklindy Posts: 1,910 Mega Baller
    @eleeski thanks Eric! By the way Kirks handle was fine before and after he skied! The dock conversation just before he left the dock was hysterical!!
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
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