Gate turn in for RFF skiers

HortonHorton Posts: 23,681 Administrator





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MuskokaKyandjulesBruce_Butterfield

Comments

  • ZmanZman Posts: 964 Crazy Baller
    Awesome! Gate turn in, probably the second worst part of all my passes. Thanks.
    Blood type IPA
  • bogboybogboy Posts: 680 Baller
    Very inspiring, Love watching this ski-up, core proud skiing.
  • DefectiveDaveDefectiveDave Posts: 435 Solid Baller
    Why the CP video? Is it because he's RFF when in reverse?
    Horton
  • Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,158 Crazy Baller
    @Horton thanks for posting this. What are they physical doing to initiate the turn?

    It is difficult to tell with only video. Are they twisting the hips in the direction you want to go? Or shifting weight to right side of front foot?
  • jercranejercrane Posts: 33 Baller
    Ok so I am right foot forward but I am right hand on top. I don’t know why I never noticed this before but all these rff pros have left hand on top. Am I putting myself at a disadvantage? Not sure how I’m going to train my 44 yo brain to make the switch if I am but ...
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,193 Mega Baller
    If you are RFF you should have your left palm up, right palm down, it will make all of your pulls stronger.

    I can't speak to what those skiers are doing but I have a couple of things that work well for me

    1) be in the right body position BEFORE you pull out. The first thing I do when I get pulled up is get myself set in good body position well before my pullout point. I see a lot of skiers standing lazy and then hoping they can magically turn the ski for the pull out and achieve a good body position simultaneously... Narrator: "they did not"
    If you are standing well on the ski and set before you pull out then it is much easier to be standing well on the ski when you pullout, glide, and turn in.

    2) pull out longer and slower
    If I pull out long and slow I have time to watch the gate as I'm coming up on it and make adjustments to timing to compensate for wind, water, etc. If you give your brain time to do the math, it is really really good at doing the math
    If you pull out with a "hit and glide" mentality then you just have to hope that you happen to be in the right place, at the right speed, at the right time... good luck

    3) Keep my handle close (and a little ahead)
    It is important to feel tension on the line throughout the pull and in the glide. If you lose tension in the glide then by definition your gate turn will be turning into slack line which will always be less effective than turning into tight line. This is much easier if you are adhering to the #2 above because it is easier to control tension when you are moving in and out of your pull in a controlled fashion than if you go from standing, hit hard, glide in jerky motions. If you transition smoothly through the pullout it is easier to maintain tension.
    (and a little ahead)
    In the glide I try to keep the handle at near-hip height but about 4-6 inches in front of me and in-line or slightly inside my right hip.
    When you are pulling, your handle is between you and the boat, it might as well start there. If it starts beside you then you will have to fall away from it before you can pull because it needs to get between you and the boat eventually.

    Putting it together,
    After getting up be sure to get set into good body position pre-pullout.
    Pull out longer and slower so your brain has time to do the math to put you in the right place to turn in.
    Keep tension on the line throughout the pullout and glide with the handle leading you slightly
    Turn into tight line with good connection to the handle.

    I make no assumptions to what the pros are thinking about but I've noticed that they do seem to be standing in good position pre-pullout, their pullouts are smooth and connected, and their handles tend to be leading their bodies a little as they come up on the gate.
    bogboyWaterSkier12Chunkyd
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,193 Mega Baller
    @Bill22, I twist my hips/point my hips across the course. This works best when you have good glide speed. If you start slowing down and the ski starts drifting behind you then it is hard to convince it to move through the turn in without falling backwards into a loaded pull.
  • andjulesandjules Posts: 631 Crazy Baller
    It's really interesting to me how neutral/balanced Nate, Regina and CP are just before they turn in vs Asher/Rossi/Mapple all being very heavy on their back foot. But by the time they are mid-way in to the turn, they're all in a balanced position.
    Bruce_ButterfieldWaterSkier12bogboy
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,681 Administrator
    @DefectiveDave The CP video is an error on my part but heck everyone should watch a little CP every day so enjoy it.

    @jercrane most RFF skiers are left palm up but if you have been skiing or years you may find the change to be difficult. I know some skiers have switched and theoretically left palm up is way better but I would think twice before trying to switch.

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    jercrane
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,681 Administrator
    edited November 30
    @andjules Yep that is actually what I wanted to talk about. Conventional wisdom is that we should all strive to turn in from our front foot. That theory seems to be out of fashion.

    None of the above videos shows the water breaking very far forward and it seems like each skier is tall and ready to load before they even roll in.

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    Than_Bogan
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,632 Mega Baller
    edited November 30
    @Horton That's not what I see at all. The water under Nate's ski is breaking way ahead of where mine usually does, and ridiculously ahead of where most skiers worse than I am do.
    Rossi is gliding on his back foot (possibly unintentionally?) BUT then engages the front foot hard before turning in.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    HortonWishWaterSkier12
  • andjulesandjules Posts: 631 Crazy Baller
    @Than_Bogan I agree re: Nate and mostly agree re: Rossi (I don't see it as a dramatic move forward) but interestingly, the opposite happens (at least in the clip provided) with Regina - she glides on the ski pretty flat but then rocks back a bit just before turning.
    And CP may even be ahead of Nate... although that's probably just the mechanics of an offside (LFF) turn... more front foot.
  • jbwannjbwann Posts: 39 Baller
    They all land in the same spot at the first spray with what it looks like a tremendous amount of front foot pressure with nicely bent knees which leads to an easy transition at center line. That Will Asher pass is the one I can't stop watching. Coming out of almost all of those turns...he looks like he leads with the upper body more than the others....foot is on the gas big time....3 ball for a RFF...insane



  • bf`bf` Posts: 83 Baller
    I've always believed that the glide with water breaking under my front foot is optimal, because I've always been told that. I've read Jay's book and was struck by the differences (and similarity) of the ability to get weight on the front of the ski to introduce tip pressure vs. what was termed "yawing tip engagement". Is it possible that the gate turn in is unique in that the skier gets to choose which way to get the most ski in the water before the pull comes from the boat? Or is this just some off-season rambling kicking in...
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,681 Administrator
    edited November 30
    @Than_Bogan regarding Rossi call your optometrist. I think you have a problem :)

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  • JskiJski Posts: 11 Baller
    Great post-always loved watching the "GOAT" if I'm not mistaken did he miss the entrance gate?? CP is always fun to watch-LFF like our most of our lil group of skiers.
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,193 Mega Baller
    There’s a difference between keeping the ski in front of you and riding back on it. If you get too far over the front the ski doesn’t always try to turn. When I glide for my gate I am actively keeping the ski in front of me but my mass is all driving down into the front foot.
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,051 Mega Baller
    @horton great videos! Here’s my observations:

    1. this is a great example of “more than one way to skin the cat”. They all do subtlety different things at each point in the pull out, glide and turn in.

    2. With the exception of Andy, the others are all nearly 90 degrees with the boat at the widest point. Andy is slightly narrower but gets after it immediately on the turn in.

    3. All turn fairly aggressively with a hard lean.

    4. You can tell that Andy was skiing shortline before the others were born. The standout point is that he is hard on his leaning edge a half to full ski length past the second wake where the others are changing edges between the center and second wake. When comparing to TW’s recent side by side, it is apparent that staying on the leaning edge longer puts him downcourse (relative to the others). But that’s the downside to engrained habits from learning behind 1980’s and 1990’s era boats.

    5. I have to agree with @Than_Bogan on Rossi being on his back foot on the glide, but he shifts to all on the front foot on the turn in where it matters.

    6. I love the way Asher turns that ski! No matter how fast he is at he buoy he is able to turn 90 degrees and backside it. That takes both a very specific ski setup and amazing athletic ability.
    If it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.
    Than_Boganandjules
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,379 Mega Baller
    edited December 1
    KC Wilson is a RFF that gets up on the front of the ski a little more. Regardless of the way they turn in, the end result is the same. They all get over the ski in the cutting phase.

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