Gate turn in for RFF skiers

HortonHorton Posts: 25,038 Administrator





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MuskokaKyandjulesBruce_Butterfieldwaterskicorey

Comments

  • ZmanZman Posts: 1,077 Crazy Baller
    Awesome! Gate turn in, probably the second worst part of all my passes. Thanks.
    Blood type IPA
  • bogboybogboy Posts: 690 Baller
    Very inspiring, Love watching this ski-up, core proud skiing.
  • DefectiveDaveDefectiveDave Posts: 477 Solid Baller
    Why the CP video? Is it because he's RFF when in reverse?
    Horton
  • Bill22Bill22 Posts: 1,365 Crazy Baller
    @Horton thanks for posting this. What are they physical doing to initiate the turn?

    It is difficult to tell with only video. Are they twisting the hips in the direction you want to go? Or shifting weight to right side of front foot?
  • jercranejercrane Posts: 87 Baller
    Ok so I am right foot forward but I am right hand on top. I don’t know why I never noticed this before but all these rff pros have left hand on top. Am I putting myself at a disadvantage? Not sure how I’m going to train my 44 yo brain to make the switch if I am but ...
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,284 Mega Baller
    If you are RFF you should have your left palm up, right palm down, it will make all of your pulls stronger.

    I can't speak to what those skiers are doing but I have a couple of things that work well for me

    1) be in the right body position BEFORE you pull out. The first thing I do when I get pulled up is get myself set in good body position well before my pullout point. I see a lot of skiers standing lazy and then hoping they can magically turn the ski for the pull out and achieve a good body position simultaneously... Narrator: "they did not"
    If you are standing well on the ski and set before you pull out then it is much easier to be standing well on the ski when you pullout, glide, and turn in.

    2) pull out longer and slower
    If I pull out long and slow I have time to watch the gate as I'm coming up on it and make adjustments to timing to compensate for wind, water, etc. If you give your brain time to do the math, it is really really good at doing the math
    If you pull out with a "hit and glide" mentality then you just have to hope that you happen to be in the right place, at the right speed, at the right time... good luck

    3) Keep my handle close (and a little ahead)
    It is important to feel tension on the line throughout the pull and in the glide. If you lose tension in the glide then by definition your gate turn will be turning into slack line which will always be less effective than turning into tight line. This is much easier if you are adhering to the #2 above because it is easier to control tension when you are moving in and out of your pull in a controlled fashion than if you go from standing, hit hard, glide in jerky motions. If you transition smoothly through the pullout it is easier to maintain tension.
    (and a little ahead)
    In the glide I try to keep the handle at near-hip height but about 4-6 inches in front of me and in-line or slightly inside my right hip.
    When you are pulling, your handle is between you and the boat, it might as well start there. If it starts beside you then you will have to fall away from it before you can pull because it needs to get between you and the boat eventually.

    Putting it together,
    After getting up be sure to get set into good body position pre-pullout.
    Pull out longer and slower so your brain has time to do the math to put you in the right place to turn in.
    Keep tension on the line throughout the pullout and glide with the handle leading you slightly
    Turn into tight line with good connection to the handle.

    I make no assumptions to what the pros are thinking about but I've noticed that they do seem to be standing in good position pre-pullout, their pullouts are smooth and connected, and their handles tend to be leading their bodies a little as they come up on the gate.
    bogboyWaterSkier12Chunkyd
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,284 Mega Baller
    @Bill22, I twist my hips/point my hips across the course. This works best when you have good glide speed. If you start slowing down and the ski starts drifting behind you then it is hard to convince it to move through the turn in without falling backwards into a loaded pull.
  • andjulesandjules Posts: 727 Crazy Baller
    It's really interesting to me how neutral/balanced Nate, Regina and CP are just before they turn in vs Asher/Rossi/Mapple all being very heavy on their back foot. But by the time they are mid-way in to the turn, they're all in a balanced position.
    Bruce_ButterfieldWaterSkier12bogboy
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,038 Administrator
    @DefectiveDave The CP video is an error on my part but heck everyone should watch a little CP every day so enjoy it.

    @jercrane most RFF skiers are left palm up but if you have been skiing or years you may find the change to be difficult. I know some skiers have switched and theoretically left palm up is way better but I would think twice before trying to switch.

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    jercrane
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,038 Administrator
    edited November 2017
    @andjules Yep that is actually what I wanted to talk about. Conventional wisdom is that we should all strive to turn in from our front foot. That theory seems to be out of fashion.

    None of the above videos shows the water breaking very far forward and it seems like each skier is tall and ready to load before they even roll in.

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    Than_Bogan
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,896 Mega Baller
    edited November 2017
    @Horton That's not what I see at all. The water under Nate's ski is breaking way ahead of where mine usually does, and ridiculously ahead of where most skiers worse than I am do.
    Rossi is gliding on his back foot (possibly unintentionally?) BUT then engages the front foot hard before turning in.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    HortonWishWaterSkier12
  • andjulesandjules Posts: 727 Crazy Baller
    @Than_Bogan I agree re: Nate and mostly agree re: Rossi (I don't see it as a dramatic move forward) but interestingly, the opposite happens (at least in the clip provided) with Regina - she glides on the ski pretty flat but then rocks back a bit just before turning.
    And CP may even be ahead of Nate... although that's probably just the mechanics of an offside (LFF) turn... more front foot.
  • jbwannjbwann Posts: 43 Baller
    They all land in the same spot at the first spray with what it looks like a tremendous amount of front foot pressure with nicely bent knees which leads to an easy transition at center line. That Will Asher pass is the one I can't stop watching. Coming out of almost all of those turns...he looks like he leads with the upper body more than the others....foot is on the gas big time....3 ball for a RFF...insane



  • bf`bf` Posts: 102 Baller
    I've always believed that the glide with water breaking under my front foot is optimal, because I've always been told that. I've read Jay's book and was struck by the differences (and similarity) of the ability to get weight on the front of the ski to introduce tip pressure vs. what was termed "yawing tip engagement". Is it possible that the gate turn in is unique in that the skier gets to choose which way to get the most ski in the water before the pull comes from the boat? Or is this just some off-season rambling kicking in...
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,038 Administrator
    edited November 2017
    @Than_Bogan regarding Rossi call your optometrist. I think you have a problem :)

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  • JskiJski Posts: 11 Baller
    Great post-always loved watching the "GOAT" if I'm not mistaken did he miss the entrance gate?? CP is always fun to watch-LFF like our most of our lil group of skiers.
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,284 Mega Baller
    There’s a difference between keeping the ski in front of you and riding back on it. If you get too far over the front the ski doesn’t always try to turn. When I glide for my gate I am actively keeping the ski in front of me but my mass is all driving down into the front foot.
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,233 Mega Baller
    @horton great videos! Here’s my observations:

    1. this is a great example of “more than one way to skin the cat”. They all do subtlety different things at each point in the pull out, glide and turn in.

    2. With the exception of Andy, the others are all nearly 90 degrees with the boat at the widest point. Andy is slightly narrower but gets after it immediately on the turn in.

    3. All turn fairly aggressively with a hard lean.

    4. You can tell that Andy was skiing shortline before the others were born. The standout point is that he is hard on his leaning edge a half to full ski length past the second wake where the others are changing edges between the center and second wake. When comparing to TW’s recent side by side, it is apparent that staying on the leaning edge longer puts him downcourse (relative to the others). But that’s the downside to engrained habits from learning behind 1980’s and 1990’s era boats.

    5. I have to agree with @Than_Bogan on Rossi being on his back foot on the glide, but he shifts to all on the front foot on the turn in where it matters.

    6. I love the way Asher turns that ski! No matter how fast he is at he buoy he is able to turn 90 degrees and backside it. That takes both a very specific ski setup and amazing athletic ability.
    If it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.
    Than_Boganandjules
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,424 Mega Baller
    edited December 2017
    KC Wilson is a RFF that gets up on the front of the ski a little more. Regardless of the way they turn in, the end result is the same. They all get over the ski in the cutting phase.

  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,038 Administrator
    edited January 11
    Cord and I were talking today about an idea I have so... @AdamCord This is what I am talking about.

    I do not know what @Chris Rossi is really "trying to do" at gate turn in but I have interpreted it and coached my version to a few skiers with great success. It looks like Chris goes back but I think it is more that he gets extra tall and ready to be centered right before he moves to the right. This seems to be a more natural move than what I have always tried and failed to do - get forward and drive my right knee to the right.

    Comment Chris?


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  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 569 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Horton ok I'm trying to read between the lines here. If you're trying to "drive your front knee to the right" on your gate turn in then there are some issues we need to talk about.

    I also wouldn't base your whole gate philosophy off of this one video of Chris. This looks to be from when he was still skiing mostly 36mph and I think any leaning back you see on the turn in has more to do with misjudged timing than anything else. I know that when I drop down to 34mph my gate looks pretty screwed up for a set or two.

    I would instead look more at this video from when he was clearly dialed and skiing great:



    The move he makes on the turn in is all about leading with his COM and not driving the ski into angle too early. You can see how gradually and progressively he builds angle while leading the ski into center. There is never an effort to drive the ski with his knees or "create angle" from a wide point on the boat. He also doesn't look like he falls back at all to me. He stays pretty perpendicular to the ski, which puts him in a strong and efficient position as he moves into the wakes.
    ski6jones
  • ZmanZman Posts: 1,077 Crazy Baller
    Can someone post @Chris Rossi video at 32 and 35? 34 mph?
    Blood type IPA
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 389 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    My biggest mistake ever in slalom......Trying to mimic what I saw others do.

    My biggest improvement in slalom - a full day of deep investigation into the dynamics of whats really going on geometrically between the ski, the boat, the skier, and the course.
    Bruce_ButterfieldHortonSkoot1123Jordan
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,038 Administrator
    edited January 12
    @adamhcaldwell I totally agree. That is sort of the crux of my mystery. While switching skis I tried to do something like what I thought "it looked like" Chris was doing and it worked for me. Then on a total lark I had some other skiers try what "I thought I was doing" and they loved it. I am sure there is some perception / reality issues but for a the few skiers I had try it the results were very positive. Unfortunately this is WILDLY unscientific and that is why I bring it up here for discussion.

    Watching the below video it hardly looks like I am making the move that I describe but in my mind I was getting taller, more alighted, and slightly back right before I turned in. Again I am NOT suggesting that this is what Rossi does - I am saying that what I thought I was doing is derivative of what I thought I saw Rossi do.


    Again my apologies to @Chris Rossi if this is a massive misrepresentation of his skiing.

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  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 747 Crazy Baller
    edited January 12
    @Horton you should head to Boca, ski with Chet, bring your longboard (conceptually then).
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    Horton
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,038 Administrator
    @Gloersen my travel plans for the year change on a daily basis but I will not be traveling with a long board.

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  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 3,956
    @Horton - why the one handed prior to turn in ?
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  • ColeGiacopuzziColeGiacopuzzi Posts: 377 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I ask him that all the time haha @RichardDoane
    Cole Giacopuzzi • Radar Skis
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 389 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Horton, Im not a righty, but I am sure @AdamCord will chime in here....

    Looks like you have the ski rolling over and moving toward CL a moment before the rope can support your COM 100% without digging the ski.

    Put differently, you and the ski are moving inside the buoy line just a hair faster then the the rope is.
    When committing to turn in, your downcourse speed has not decayed enough to force the rope to pull help get your mass moving toward center (boat has not moved far enough away yet).

    This can be seen in the "dip" of the rope a moment after you roll the ski in off the glide. With Nate, Andy, Regina, Mapple, etc, the rope is rock solid the whole time from glide to Cl. They are not moving toward CL faster then the handle at the initial turn in.

    Aim to have your downcourse speed decay more to force the handle to help initiate the progressively acceleration toward CL. The trick is to just have your body and the ski in the right position during the roll in to be productive with the initial pull from the boat and accept the acceleration toward CL.
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