Where does speed come from

Orlando76Orlando76 Posts: 558 Crazy Baller
I’ve never ventured into fin theory as it is a bit over my head and skill level. I feel I need to adjust myself before adjusting a fin .001. But Horton’s recent fin video got me thinking and spurred my question of where does speed come from? Of course ski materials and design determine this significantly as well as body position but what role does the fin play in speed if any? Wing angle?

Comments

  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 1,897 Mega Baller
    edited December 2017
    In my opinion, speed will occur and peak when more of the edge of the ski is in the water, with the skier leaning away from the boat in a balanced stance, and executing these in tandem at the moment that maximum centripetal force can be harnessed from the boat and rope configuration.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
    dvskier
  • WishWish Posts: 6,808 Mega Baller
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    @Orlando76 It is all a bit of voodoo but generally you can think of the amount of leading edge and the amount of total fin as factors that make a ski faster or slower. The less fin the faster ..... sort of.

    The more fin surface and fin leading edge there is the there more drag there is. Even the thickness of a fin makes a noticeable difference. If you replace a .085 fin with a .090 fin the ski will feel more stable but slower.

    I like to think of a wing as not directly changing the speed of a ski as much as it changes the attitude of the ski in the water. A wing pulls the tail of the ski down and that does a lot of things including increasing the drag of the ski - the flatter the ski is in the water the less resistance.

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  • DWDW Posts: 1,578 Crazy Baller
    To back up a step, speed comes from geometry. The more angle one holds, the faster the skier will travel since the boat is basically holding a set speed. Once rope tension is released, deceleration will be a function of the ski setup, positioning in the water and skier inputs.
    Horton
  • thagerthager Posts: 3,840 Mega Baller
    Need!
    Stir vigorously then leave!
    DragoSkiJayski6jones
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    edited December 2017
    @DW and there comes the rub. A bigger fin means more grip and less side slip but as grip increases and sideslip decreases the load in the skier's hands (and body) at the centerline increases.

    I know at times I have had skis that turn Off Side (one ball) awesome because of a big fin. The amount of grip results in my losing connection at the center line and results in a crap On Side. The fix may be with DFT or with total fin area.

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  • ScottScottScottScott Posts: 336 Solid Baller
    edited December 2017
    Theres an ideal angle of cross coarse direction, combined with COM forward, and combined with an ideal amount of lean, that gives maximum speed. If you try to take too much angle, you end up sliding sideways too much. Similar to trajectory when throwing a ball for distance, there is a perfect angle to maximize speed. But, even with that perfect angle, if COM is too far back, it puts too much of the resistance on the smaller back part of the ski that cant grip as much, so more slide. COM forward and stack puts the pull in the meat of the ski for maximum grip. I think fin settings all lead to getting you into that ideal position out of the turn for the cross without losing speed in the turn.
    Wishsunvalleylawski6jones
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    That's exactly what I said :- )

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  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 662 Crazy Baller
    @adamhcaldwell - that's the best and most efficient description of ideal and optimal acceleration (how it's achieved) I've ever read. Thanks for that post.
    stå løpet ut
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 222 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited December 2017
    Thanks @Gloersen - hard to keep that one short!

    This is why you see so many skiers can ride just about anything. The are not relying solely on the ski for production of speed. They take advantage of the global system.

    This doesn't mean ski setup and design isn't important though. Getting a ski dialed in with optimal acceleration and deceleration characteristics is huge.

    Ski setup is what gives us the opportunity to stay in harmony with the pendulum swing around the pylon and simultainuousky be synchronous with the slalom course.





    Jordanelr
  • DekeDeke Posts: 325 Baller
    My biggest revelation about speed happened when I stopped thinking about 'linear' speed.
    Ski setup is what gives us the opportunity to stay in harmony with the pendulum swing around the pylon and simultainuousky be synchronous with the slalom course.

    Hey guys!
    Remember when pendulums weren't cool? B)

    @adamhcaldwell thank you for some great explanations.
    Wish
  • DragoDrago Posts: 862 Crazy Baller
    @Deke I never swayed from the pendulum theory, when I had kids and put them on swingsets, it increased my belief to religious status
    WishDekeadamhcaldwell
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,783 Mega Baller
    Speed comes from resistance. There is a best fin setup for every ski and skier. Just because a skinny strong kid from Indiana runs a specific setup into 43 off, doesn't mean it will work for an old fat guy. It comes down to tradeoffs and balancing a fin that rolls up and holds edge behind the boat, to one that can turn on both sides of the course, and what the particular skier can handle or push around in the turns when the need arises.

    To not play with fin setup is leaving balls on the table if you ask me. Make changes, take good notes, and try pushing an adjustment to the limit, then back it off to the sweet spot. They stopped making fixed fins a long time ago for a reason!
    WaterSkier12
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    Just because a skinny strong kid from Indiana runs a specific setup into 43 off, doesn't mean it will work for an old fat guy.


    that Mr @AB is wisdom that needs to be heard

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  • bkobko Posts: 32 Baller
    Thanks @adamhcaldwell!
    I am looking forward to implement these thoughts into my "concepts" when the winter is over.

    But I have to admit I don't understand the actual description of the how-to:

    "On the buoy-line."
    Does that mean the desired starting point is at the buoy-line?

    "High enough velocity to still be 'on-plane' and in an efficient body position to lead the ski into CL."
    This is clear (I think).

    "Rope at a 45° position to the boat"
    ?

    "ALL AT THE EXACT SAME TIME."
    I don't get this at all. Can the skier be at the buoy-line at the same time the rope is at an angle of 45° (if the rope is shorter than, let's say, 22 off)??



  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 222 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited January 7
    @bko - Come ski with me in Charleston some time.

    I want to run 41 in a tournament before I give all the secrets away for free on BOS.
    DragoSki63jerrym
  • AndreAndre Posts: 700 Crazy Baller
    There's also the Jeff Rodgers's way.
    Put ski on.
    Ski.
    ScottScottWaterSkier12
  • bkobko Posts: 32 Baller
    @adamhcaldwell
    Once you have run 41 off your advice must become more expensive ;)

    If I ever make it across the big pond again, skiing with you and/or Cord is on top of my bucket list.
    So far I only have had glimpses of your coaching through Austin Abel here in Austria. He was also the one who introduced me to the Denali
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    @andre love Rogers but he plays like a good old boy who just skis. I don't buy it.

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  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 222 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Agree!
    Drago
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