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Early Edge Change

HortonHorton Posts: 25,312 Administrator
edited January 30 in Technique & Theory
@cragginshred made a comment in another thread about wanting to change edges earlier. I think this is an interesting subject that I am not sure has ever been really flushed out in this forum. I see lots of skiers at all levels who struggle with pulling too long. I think there are a lot of causes and effects.

For me I very much struggle with pulling too long through the gates at my hardest passes. Of course there are a lot of factors a the gate. The best coaching I have gotten in a long time was to keep my shoulders more level to keep from overloading and pulling too long ( @twhisper ).

I also very much like the idea of bringing my head up higher off the water as early as the first white water. In my mind the goal is not so much a early edge change as it is a long slow transition that starts as early as possible. When I am successful the result is a very early line to the next ball.

Any of you smart guys have comments?

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Comments

  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,545
    In my opinion pulling longer than you need to is often but not always a by product of not enough angle. Its much easier to move early with the right amount of angle off the buoy.
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' Boat 2005 Nautique 196 6L ZO - Ski: KD Platinum

  • WishWish Posts: 7,262 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @AdamCord @adamhcaldwell seem to have fare, flushed out explanations of this on why, when and where edge change happens as its not so much something that is done but rather a result. I believe they have written several posts on this.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,402 Crazy Baller
    As @wish states- edge change is a result, not an action. It is a function of load, compression, and release. Earlier load and compression leads to earlier release= edge change. Snow skiers experience this as rebound.
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 4,842 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Regardless I like @horton's concepts above. A little more open to keep from overloading which may either stick you on edge too long or create too abrupt a release. Head a little higher at first wash is probably a way to just begin to come up so that the edge change does then happen earlier. The beginning of an edge change is not an edge change at all but rather starts as progressively less leaning edge.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • WishWish Posts: 7,262 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited January 30
    Can't remember which Adam challenged me to ski as I normally do but at or before CL decide and try to ski at or inside the buoy. Eye opener.

    Another thought I heard which I liked. You can pull as long and as hard as you like on the line past the second wake but there cannot be any load on the ski past centerline .,,aka it's changing direction/transitioning/changing edge.

    Both require things happening correctly before first wake. Doing the opposite of those is gonna cause issues.

    I still can't rap my head around the pole vault analogy.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 4,842 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @adamhcaldwell very cool insights...funny how things said in a different way than before somehow resonate I like this a lot!
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • andjulesandjules Posts: 741 Crazy Baller
    edited January 30
    @wish @adamhcaldwell those are some interestingly counter-intuitive (and counter-ski-culture) thoughts. Reminds me of something Chris Rossi wrote a long time ago about not trying to ski an unskiable path.
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 406 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @andjules

    Its not counter ski culture by an means. Its more part of the missing links and holes that exist in a lot of theory.
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 406 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited January 30
    @andjules - YES 100%. Very well put.
  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,545
    Line pressure with less ski pressure after center line sounds like something I could work with on the water if I understood the comment correctly.
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' Boat 2005 Nautique 196 6L ZO - Ski: KD Platinum

  • WishWish Posts: 7,262 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited January 30
    @ozski that's basically it. If you have pressure on the bottom of the ski after second wake, you are no longer driving the ski along the handle path, and in a battle to stay connected.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,705 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Just putting across a point of view here, surely it is about generating enough speed into the c/l to enable you to stand up and ride the handle path, with both hands on and moderate pressure, giving you control of handle and body position without the boat taking control.
    Something that sounds easy but requires a good amount of skill and awareness.
    I accept that I do not ski at the level that some of you Guy,s and Girls ski at, but I would urge you to view the wiremill pro slalom vid on youtube, the pro,s seem to be fairly free of the boat as they move out to the bouy line, giving them control of the handle and freedom to maintain or change body position any which way they wish.

    " Ski It Like You Mean It ! ”

  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 780 Crazy Baller
    edited January 31
    Chet Posts: 39 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    February 2015
    I get the privlidge to either ski with or at least discuss slalom with both Nate and Regina multiple times a year.
    One conversation I never hear is ....when or where to switch or change edges.
    The conversation is one of the boats constant and continual value. In other words not should I pull long or short but instead how do I make the boat keep pulling on me even as I am coming up and out of my pull.
    In my opinion good jumpers have been doing a version of this for a long time. While on one ski exiting the wake they continue to ride the boats energy as they begin rising out of their max leverage position. They use as much of the boats value for as long as possible trying to gain a mechanical (boat) advantage.

    In my opinion this idea gives the slalom skier more follow through at the back of the buoy and on to the wake.
    It pretty much lets them take as much ankle as they want and have little if any worry as to whether they will be able to hold it. The more important question they seem to want to know is can they continue to reuse it over and over again.
    If angle is basically where the tip of the ski is pointed and a lean is designed to hold that angle once established then body alignment must be used to help anatomically support that lean.
    Riding the boats energy is basically all that remains.
    Anatomical, directional and mechanical advantage.
    When I see them apply it and see how easy they make it look it just makes me hungry to go ski and try.

    WishMattPHortonbishop8950Skoot1123wtrskior
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 406 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited January 31
    @twhisper Great question. This is kind of challenging to answer without repeating a lot of things we've gotten into previously...but here is my best shot.

    My focus is 100% on geometry, timing, course positioning and the body position on top of the ski to get the ski to do what I need it to do before I get there. The better I get at understanding the geometry, the less effort it takes to run passes. I was running 39s in 2010/2011 for the first time, but realized it was taking a tole on my body and I needed to find a new way or my time on a ski would be limited. Fast forward to today, I have days where I feel like it takes more effort at 32 then it does at 38/39. There is just way less opportunity to screw up!

    Changing the skis direction, (where its pointing), is more of a conscious thought and awareness then a cue or a 'move'. Knowing and understanding an immediate body-position, ski angle, roll angle, etc and where it is going to take you as you move into the space in front of you is HUGE. Not much different then driving a racecar on a track down a straight-away knowing there a HUGE turn coming up. If you don't think ahead about the path your entering the turn with, you will be slammed in the wall EARLY. "The wall" is equivalent to "separation" for a skier. Drivers on a racetrack are setting up for the turn as early as they can on the straight-away.

    I think a lot of high level skiers have learned to "compress" and "advance" to force or allow the ski to change direction in the preturn. I think yourself and Cale Burdick, Wade Cox and others would fit this description very well. Most people though, are ripped apart and separated before they have the opportunity to do so because they're literally trying to hold on to, or actually get more ski angle after CL without the strength, body position, speed, understanding or whatever to make anything good happen with it.

    I think its more of a case where people are stuck on a thought of "ANGLE through CL" which causes them to separate before they can even begin to think about making an effecitve movement to initiate and control the trajectory into the turn.

    Realizing the CL is in essence a TURN itself is important. Meaning, the handle physically changes directions at CL. Where it shifts from traveling opposite of the direction the boats travel- to the same direction. We need to be aware that the instant after CL, we must get going downcourse. Still focusing on going across is not productive. Getting the mind to let go of the need for "angle" at CL will allow you to naturally begin a more progressive change in direction a moment before hitting CL so you are able to stay connected and continue to allow the ski to change direction as the ski rolls naturally onto a new edge.

    I am a believer that 'angle into CL = angle away from CL'. Knowing the ski is like a big rudder, if I have the ski pointing 90degs at CL, its going to want to continue that path until my body separates from the line and the ski is forced to turn down course aka - "hitting the wall".

    Learning to build "load" on the boat without excessive ski angle allows for getting the ski to change direction earlier. The energy created before CL hugely a function of timing and body position. We don't need the ski to have a ton of angle to create the energy.

    The less angle I take into CL, the less need there is for a direction change. With less angle into CL, it becomes exponentially easier to change directions early because there is literally less physical ski rotation "YAW" the ski must undergo in order to enter the turn on the optimal path. Not enough angle will obviously not get you there. But trying to take the ski beyond 45deg into and through CL is a waste of effort.

    I think it might be good for @AdamCord to chim in on this topic as he made a huge breakthrough with this on the C-65 this year and took his skiing on average nearly a whole pass higher. Huge considering he could already run 38!
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 406 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited February 1
    One last thing to chew on in terms of ski angle...

    On a gate pullout for example, I focus on trying to keep the ski as parallel to the boats path as possible (yes there is some ski angle, but its not at all a goal or objective). I rely on my COM leading the ski, and the reaction force (Resultant of lift and drag) created on the bottom of the ski to move me wider on the course, while the energy of the boat literally pulls me up next to it. Even with very little ski angle, the resulting force on the tunnel will drive me on wider path, until I am up next to the boat. This takes very little effort to execute. There are a few different techniques or body position that can be utilized to accomplish this, and can be executed a number of ways. Each has there benefit and shortfalls.

    If, lets say, I were to focus on building ski angle in order to get width during the pullout, I end up putting the ski on a very in-efficient angle of attack and resisting the pull of the boat. This uses lot more effort then necessary to overcome the drag and inefficiency of the skis position in the water, and produces a result that you can do very little with going into the next phase of the slalom course.

    A place where the high ski angle can (sometimes) be useful, or important, is after the apex of the turn into the finish. A time we WANT to have maximum down-course deceleration in order to get boat support as early as possible. However, even still, more is not necessarily better as it can disrupt our ability to accelerate efficiently as we move into the first wake and CL. The higher you are up on the boat at the apex of the turn, the more angle you will need to finish the turn with.

    Note: From the passengers seat, a ski with a lot of tip rocker can 'appear' to have a lot more angle then it really does as its rolled over on edge. Need to look at alignment of the feet and knees to see where a ski is pointing. Overhead drone footage also exposes a more realistic picture.

    Here is a video of myself as a LFF skier. No judging as I'm on a different ski setup almost daily, so its not nearly as smooth as TW, but my hope is that it will highlight some of the points made, and where my focus tends to be. A couple turns I fall in slightly as my setup is dialed for shortline, but the element to look for is how 'transition' is starting to happen prior to crossing CL, but the edge change it self is not actually taking place till later. That "transition" is a conscious effort to keep COM leading as long as possible to not build excessive angle, and managed the 'trajectory' that will happen as I cross through CL.

  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 588 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Really easy to see what @adamhcaldwell is talking about here

  • cragginshredcragginshred Posts: 685 Crazy Baller
    edited January 31
    Two things stand out in both those videos

    1) The best ski into angle off the ball I have ever seen.

    2) Not the earliest edge change I have ever seen but who cares? It was plenty early and consistent on both sides.

    I would rather watch passes like this all day long than someone trying to get an extra 1/2 buoy at a super short line length.
    Vapor pro 2017
  • twhispertwhisper Posts: 76 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    This is a pass with my intent being on skiing an appropriate amount of angle in order to keep the line tighter at the finish of the turns. It gets away from me a little bit coming out of five ball, and you will notice the drastic change happening at the wakes rather than a nice smooth progression.
  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 780 Crazy Baller
    edited January 31
    @adamcaldwell – good, insightful stuff, appreciate the input as well as that of @twhisper and @AdamCord

    Personally can attest that over-powering efforts to ski tangentially past CL (or unsustainable load/angle off the buoy) only leads to rapid, undesirable reduction in handle path angle (failing to ski a tight line handle path up on the boat). Edge changes become abrupt with excessive upper body movement towards center.

    Optimizing variables; seems like success may be:

    :neutral:

  • mlangemlange Posts: 161 Baller
    This thread has really opened my eyes and given me something to think about. Thanks to everyone for chiming in on their perspective.

    My question/problem is similar to @Stevie Boy's comment above. In order for all of this to work after CL I still need to carry a lot of speed into CL , right? And THAT is where I'm still struggling. So much of what we talk about on here is that it's what we do 10 steps before X that determines if X will be done right or wrong. So it's those steps that lead to everything Adam hit on above that I'm also interested in.

  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 588 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @mlange it starts with the gate https://goo.gl/LRGFsx
  • ColeGiacopuzziColeGiacopuzzi Posts: 376 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited February 1
    Thank you @adamhcaldwell , @AdamCord & @twhisper for taking the time and breaking it down. Definitely a great read, and something I can apply and focus on more for this season. Great stuff.
    Cole Giacopuzzi • Radar Skis
  • cragginshredcragginshred Posts: 685 Crazy Baller
    I was told there would be no math???
    Vapor pro 2017
  • mlangemlange Posts: 161 Baller
    Thanks yet again @adamhcaldwell Now I just need to figure out how this translates to the water. :)

    In all seriousness, this really is great content that gives me something to think about besides trying to figure out when the ice is going to clear up here.
  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 588 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    The limitation that we have when considering the pendulum and "variable gravity" aspect of skiing, is that we are moving across the top of a fluid. By moving across the fluid with speed, both lift and drag are generated. Now something to keep in mind about lift and drag, is that they are two perpendicular vectors that are drawn to represent the one resultant force that is actually acting on the airplane, boat, ski, or whatever it is we are looking at. In this case, a ski.

    Now the SLOWER we go before sinking, the more that resultant vector is going to be pointing backward, away from our direction of travel. The faster we go, the more vertically the vector will point, thus lifting the ski higher in the water, and resisting our forward motion less.

    What this gives us is something of a paradox. We want a lot of "gravity", or downward swing relative to the pylon. But we also want to accelerate as quickly as possible with the least amount of load. Therein lies the problem. I can jump on the tail and slow my speed rapidly, thus increasing my downward swing, or I can stay forward, keep the ski as flat as possible, and try to keep the ski moving, resulting in less drag. What is right?

    Luckily, there is a way out of Pandora's box.

    A higher ski speed relative to the water is required to maintain a favorable resultant lift vector. Also we need to increase our "gravity" downward relative to the boat. What this requires of us is to move through the turn efficiently. By that I mean we can change our direction from down course to across course, with speed. Changing our direction from down course to across course is effectively increasing our "gravity" relative to the boat, and doing it efficiently, by staying ahead of the ski, allows us to maintain a favorable lift/drag vector.

    While that may sound obvious, the challenge is doing that while keeping a tight line. THIS is where a good gate and understand of our timing on the boat comes into play. If you are still swinging up on the boat when you try to "efficiently change your direction from down course to across course" what will happen? You will ski directly toward the boat, resulting in a very limp rope.

    BUT, if you can do that while you are starting your downward swing on the boat, suddenly you have what can be seen in the videos above of @adamhcaldwell, Nate, and @twhisper. Lots of angle and speed out of the buoy, but very little load.

    The magic result of this is that by STARTING with a great deal of cross course speed as you start your pull, you never need to heavily load the ski, and you're able to enter the wakes in position to do what Caldwell described above: take less angle, let the ski point down course, and ski the handle path.

    This is a "rhythm" that repeats through each turn and pull, and it all starts with the gate. You must perform your gate in sync with the boat in order to set yourself up to do the same through the entire pass. Without setting up the gate properly, it's impossible to get this later in the course.
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