Moving Forward ?

Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,649 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
So there was a recent thread about early edge change, in that thread somebody stated that they always try to keep moving forward with the ski, thinking about this, I came up with this conclusion, am I right or wrong.
With a relatively good stacked position, if you maintain good back/leading arm pressure would this be enough to ensure that you keep moving forward with the ski, if not, is there a movement that is required to acheive what this person was trying to put across ?

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Lovell
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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    @Stevie Boy There are a lot of strong opinions about " back/leading arm pressure". I am not sure there is universal agreement on this among top skiers and coaches about what is right and wrong on the subject.

    For the record- in my mind the -going to one ball - the back arm is the left arm and the leading arm is the right arm.

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    @Stevie Boy to better answer your question.

    NO. I personally think shifting pressure from one arm to the other will substantially move your COM forward.

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  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,649 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Horton I agree there can be confusion with terminology, for me my back arm is also my leading arm, if I am moving from left to right, I consider my right arm as my back arm, I also consider my right arm as my leading arm, because it is the leading part of my body, as I move from left to right, so how would you refer to the arm that follows, maybe the inside arm, so the the arm that is moving across course towards the outside, is the outside arm and the arm following would be the inside arm.
    What I was trying to ask is, if you have more pressure on your outside arm, would this ensure that COM automatically moves forward or is this not enough.

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    Deke
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    edited March 1
    @Stevie Boy It might / could help but no I do not think you can count on that making a big difference in terms of moving you forward. I could make the argument that it would / could move you back.

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  • DanoDano Posts: 92 Baller
    my aha moment that gets me in a much more forward position. "keep the handle at your hip longer" as in all the way to ball line. It's hard and likely not accomplished but just thinking all the way to ball line keeps 2 hands on the handle longer, the line tighter, the speed higher, and the boat seems to naturally take you up on top of the ski in a strong position as you approach apex. I've only run -28 at 34 a few times but this is what made those few times possible for me.
    adamhcaldwellZman
  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,537
    I would encourage anyone who wants an answer to this question to load up one arm as your approaching the wakes and release the other arm. The direction of fall and subsequent rotation(s) could help settle this debate, video please.
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' Boat 2005 Nautique 196 6L ZO - Ski: KD Platinum

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    @ozski not helpful

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  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,649 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Horton , would a better approach be more open to the boat, with fairly even pressure on both arms, thinking about it more open to the boat must encourage COM forward or do you think I have that wrong as well, some of the best skiers I have watched, do not have a lot of movement going on.

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  • WishWish Posts: 7,165 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited March 2
    Considering it's an asymmetrical stance in terms of body position on the ski, I find myself closed off from (RFF skier) 1 to 2 and more open from 2-3 on video of my mortal skiing. I do see this in a lot of top level skiers though. So arm load, one more or less then the other, is different each direction from what I've seen and felt...IMHO.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Than_Boganwolfgang
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    @Stevie Boy

    If this is the right idea for you personally is one thing. It could be that thinking about more load in one arm or the other is in fact going to be your magic bullet. I would have to sit in the boat and watch to ski before I could even guess if this is the right path or not.

    If this is a good idea for the skiing community as a whole is another topic. I would have to say NO. Being more forward at the wakes depends on an nearly incalculable number of possible factors. Are you exiting the ball in the best way possible? Is your stack as good as if can be? Do you have enough water speed? Do you have the appropriate angle? How are you moderating the total load from the hookup to the wakes? And so on. These ideas are just not "plug and play".

    My personal prescription for arm pressure is not focused on moving forward. I think you want your shoulders as level as possible*, a nearly balanced amount of load in each arm and a natural amount of openness. Not crazy open or crazy closed - just the amount of body twist that the pull from the boat creates. If your amount of openness pivots your hips back in any way then you should close off a bit.

    *thinks for that tip @twhisper

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  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,315 Mega Baller
    @Stevie Boy - many years ago the right arm on the way to 1 ball used to be called the ' back arm ' because it was farthest from the boat during the pull. the prevalent coaching back when was to ' hide your back shoulder from the boat ' during the pull. of course that was when the boats had 240 hp and were driven by hand. these days the strongest pull behind the boat comes from loading both arms as equally as possible.

    when i first heard coaching referring to the ' leading arm ' it was accompanied by the opposite term ' trailing arm '. to me that seems like a easy to understand description that is just naturally devoid of confusion - for example no one with any understanding of the sport would think the right arm going going through the gate should be called the ' trailing arm '. i have no idea why that term isn't used more commonly, and no idea why the seemingly confusing term ' back arm ' hasn't fallen out of use but maybe its just old habits dying hard.
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,044 Crazy Baller
    Leading arm is closest to the tip of the ski, trailing arm is closest to the tail. However, doesn't have much to do with moving forward. I can move my arm or shoulder forward by breaking at the waist.
    I would tune into where your hips are
    Sr sl driver & judge
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  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,904 Mega Baller
    edited March 4
    Watch TW ski in Slomo. He sometimes looks as if he is pulling his ski from behind his COM and pushes it out in front of him in the wakes. Could this be what you are asking about?

    I had to force myself to focus on moving the ski out in front of me when I hit the first wake. This puts the load on the back arm if you hold it tight to hip when the ski is through the wakes.

    It helps gain maximum arc out to the buoys in my opinion. Others feel it happens naturally. It didn’t for me.
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,649 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @A_B That is what was going through my mind, some Pro skiers seem to do do exactly what you have described, obviously by what you are saying, this does not happen automatically by altering where you take the pressure from the boat, just thinking that the sort of movement you descirbe for yourself could be a little unsettling or could go wrong at some point.

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    @A_B I believe the idea that elite skiers push the ski forward at the centerline is I misconception. I don't think anyone should ever try to do that.

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  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,904 Mega Baller
    I can remember first trying to do this and popped a few wheelies which was a little unsettling at 38. It was easier to do going into my offside turn and created a lot of extra space at the ball when I did it right. It helps put the ski on a path that is wider than the handle path, if that makes sense.
    MISkier
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,904 Mega Baller
    edited March 4
    We can disagree or maybe it’s semantics of how I describe it. All I know is when I watch from the end of a slalom course, I see top skiers look like they leave the handle behind them as they shoot out to the buoy. They are in a chair position and the ski is in front of them until the ski slows down and they are then in more of a central standing position. This is something that happens naturally if you are a
    Natural or something you have to make happen. Just my 2c.
    MISkier
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    @A_B I agree that this naturally happens especially when a skier is at their limit but that doesn't mean it's something you should try to do

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  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,904 Mega Baller
    It has been discussed before. Some think it happens naturally and some don’t. Ford vs Chevy.


    https://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/7675/chris-parrish-andy-mapple-side-by-side-comparison
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,204 Crazy Baller
    I call my right arm my "toe side" arm and my left arm my "offside arm".
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  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    @A_B I don't think you ever want your hips behind your feet. If there is a theory why I would want to push the ski forward at center line I am all ears.

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  • teammalibuteammalibu Posts: 648 Crazy Baller
    edited March 5
    I agree with what @dbutcher said lets keep it simple! After reading this all i feel is pressure between my ears!
    Mike Erb Cedar Ridge Canton Miss.
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  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,904 Mega Baller

  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,904 Mega Baller

  • WishWish Posts: 7,165 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @A_B are you suggesting that these two pics show the ski being pushed out in front of them?
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,904 Mega Baller
    I think it shows the hips behind the feet.
    If you think that loading the tip by falling forward in the turn like a downhill snow skier makes sense, and if you watch Nate or any top skiers, there is something going on as they approach the wakes. Something happens where the ski goes from being under the skier to out in front. We can debate all day what makes that happen, but in the end, if it doesn’t happen, you won’t ride the widest path to the buoys.
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,904 Mega Baller
    There was an awesome article in Spray or WSM many years ago that had freeze frames of Andy, Bob, and Carl. They were hitting this position after the second wake. I compared my video to it and saw this was absent, as I stayed over the ski more centered. Back in the day I pulled as hard as any 195 pound guy, so was generating speed and angle pretty good, but I wasn’t harvesting it correctly on the other side of the wake.
    I focused on this one move and position and went from occasionally running 35 to doing the same at 38, and picking up a few at 39 on a great day. I also surprised myself several times after a cruddy turn and short hookup by gaining this extra width by forcing this position and still being able to get the ski around a buoy I would have never made before.
    I absolutely had some falls by over cooking the ski too far out in front but I viewed that as growing pains. I was a self taught river skier with lots of bad habits that had to be fixed.
    customski
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,904 Mega Baller
    edited March 5
    @Wish It was not a natural move for me and was not happening as a byproduct of my lean through the wakes. So I had to think about pushing the ski in front of me which entailed pulling my knees up as I unweighted the ski in the edge change. I wouldn’t say it was a huge push but a nudge at least.

    Like I said, I had a lot of bad habits and one was pulling too hard too long as I just didn’t get the ski wide enough staying on top of it. I actually reduced my length of pull and made this transition and got wider. If that makes any sense to you.
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