The farther you lean / pull past centerline ...

HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
Maybe this makes me “Captain Obvious” but I had never thought about his before yesterday:

The farther you lean / pull past centerline - the more your shoulders have to move to the inside when you do edge change. I have not exactly wrapped my head around explaining why this is but I am sure that if you transition at the centerline you can almost just bring your feet and shoulders into the same vertical plane. The farther past centerline you are when you transition the more your shoulders will move to the inside and your feet to the outside.

(Now I get to sit back and read the 100,000,000 words @adamhcaldwell / @AdamCord are going to write explaining the why this is. I am hoping for words like tangent and coefficient or maybe even exponent)

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Comments

  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,315 Mega Baller
    personally i appreciate every single word either adam has ever written about the sport. on a related note, if you could write one word per second, 100,000,000 words would require a little over 3 years to complete. hopefully they'll express their thoughts in less time than that.
    WishsunvalleylawAkBob
  • BradyBrady Posts: 1,057 Mega Baller
    @mwetskier you are eerie-Ingly starting to sound like @Than_Bogan. Please lord no!!!! I still can’t get the physics of how to jump over a 6 foot pole vault out of my mind.
    I ski, therefore I am
    Than_BoganBruce_Butterfield
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,649 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited April 3
    Slightly different perspective, I am trying to always transition at the CL , working on the concept the shorter the line the more you need to lean, have to ask is there any returns, for " Pull /Lean past the C/L "
    Most things that I have read suggest not, my opinion is that, if you have not generated enough speed into the C/L, after the C/L the boat will take control and you will be forced to go with it, if you don,t you have got a fight on your hands to complete the pass.
    I feel that " Lean / Pull " after the C/ L results in the boat trying to take you to the inside of the course, when we are trying to ski outside of the course.
    Based on what @Horton is saying, too much movement, ie, shoulders to the inside and feet to the outside, results in what I describe as flip/flop skiing, with so much movement it has got to be much harder to achieve consistency in varied water/wind conditions.

    " Ski It Like You Mean It ! ”

  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,350 Mega Baller
    @Than_Bogan don’t confuse a good story with the truth.
    Mark Shaffer
    Bradydvskier
  • BradyBrady Posts: 1,057 Mega Baller
    @Than_Bogan exactly!!! Love you brudda!
    I ski, therefore I am
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,315 Mega Baller
    @Brady -actually i'm thankful @Horton didn't exaggerate all the way to ' a billion '. if you could write one word per second 24 hours a day, writing one billion words would take you roughly 32 years. a trillion words would take around 32,000 years.

    reminds me of a old joke: ' three brazilian soldiers were killed today in iraq...
    hey folks,. can somebody please tell me just exactly how many is a brazilian? ' -jay leno
    BradyMike
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    @mweskier ok I regret making the joke. Back to slalom skiing please.

    @Stevie Boy For sure it is not ideal to pill past the centerline but in the real world we do not always do what is ideal.

    I like the term "Flip/ Flop skiing" I am going to use that.

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  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,649 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @adamhcaldwell would this involve transferring load from the outside arm to the inside arm ?

    " Ski It Like You Mean It ! ”

    BAlake
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,315 Mega Baller
    @adamhcaldwell - you wrote ' Need to figure out a way to “pull” and remain connected in a way that is conducive to swing speed without creating load on the ski when executing said “ pull”. '

    When i read that i interpret it to mean your goal is to actively preserve your angular momentum without simultaneously increasing your vulnerability to the restorative force. would that be correct?
    adamhcaldwell
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,649 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @mwetskier Wow ! I Guess, I should just go Ski, Pro comment "If You Start To Think, You Are Done" courtesy of Will Asher.

    " Ski It Like You Mean It ! ”

  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    @adamhcaldwell Semantics? In this instance I'm using the word "pull" to mean the top of the ski is facing away from the boat and the skier trying to lean away from the pylon. It's not very good terminology but this sport is full of bad terminology.

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    andjules
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,315 Mega Baller
    @Stevie Boy -allow me to retort: ' most skiers stop thinking too soon. ' andy mapple
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    @AdamCord okay how about if we just say point of transition in relation to the center line

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  • WishWish Posts: 7,165 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited April 4
    @andjules You've discribed things well but the missing section I would say is from CL (your pull/lean phase when that ends at CL) to ski being on inside edge (your stay connected phase). The missing section would be from CL to the new edge which is where the thread title refers. It's there that pull/lean and stay connected get lost in skiers understanding do to the terms everyone is used to. Change is hard but may be nessisarry for better understanding.

    I believe that's Adams point. Changing the terms may be nessisarry. Pull/lean and Stay connected are very misleading IMHO. Lean is ski load and pull is line load however that is generated. I've been working with a couple skiers over the winter and the idea of pressuring the line (pull) vs pressuring he ski (lean) has been an eye opener for them and me for that matter. Telling someone to stop pulling/leaning, as you put it, after CL but to stay connected actually is a difficult concept to rap ones head around as you are still pulling (line load). That and pull makes skiers pull in with arms. But to tell someone they can continue to load the line (pull) but can no longer be loading the ski (lean) at CL separates the two concepts so each is better understood. It gets the skier to keep line load but scrub ski load at or even starting befor CL which is the desired outcome. It's not really that big of a term jump but it does provide more clarity.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    david_skiBruce_ButterfieldbraindamageShererSkier
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    You guys may recall that I actually set up a wiki a few months ago so we as a group could build a lexicon and no one cared. I guess if we all used the same terminology and understood each other we would not have as much to talk about. :(

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  • WishWish Posts: 7,165 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited April 4
    Maybe stop leaning at CL but keep pulling.? Not a fan of the term pulling but it's better then combining the terms pull and lean in the same definition.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    GarJAS
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    In reality I think the term Pulling is likely bad in all uses but it is a very common term in the sport.

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  • andjulesandjules Posts: 730 Crazy Baller
    @Wish a couple of things:

    a) no question that the terms aren't ideal; so in one way I applaud the Adams for digging deeper for meaning, but at the same time, I'm not sure that it's going to be helpful to try to redefine "pull" to mean something completely different than what our whole community understands (as per @adamhcaldwell's comment above)

    b) agreed, the "staying connected" part isn't all that well understood, and lots of us (me!!) struggle to execute. Ironically(?), I think you misunderstood me, as I'd include the transition as part of staying connected (rolling off the 'away' edge, through flat and onto the inside edge, while still providing some resistance/feeling some load with the upper body). "Staying connected" in my mind is a process through the transition, not a state at the end of the transition.

    c) I don't think I agree with your definition of pull (line load) vs lean (ski load); that's kinda my point, most skiers — rightly or wrongly — think of them as synonyms. For sure, I'd agree that "lean" has usually been less ambiguous than "pull". But (as per @adamhcaldwell comment above, calling what happens after the CL a kind of "pull") I think we're gonna make more problems than we'd solve if we try to redefine "pull" for the whole community. I think a more helpful way to describe line tension/staying connected after the CL is: there is a skill in "being pulled" after the CL; where "staying connected" can be done well — what the Adams are helping us think about differently — or poorly, e.g. "getting separated".
    Wish
  • ski6jonesski6jones Posts: 757 Crazy Baller
    Why not just describe it as line tension, like you just did? "a more helpful way to describe line tension/staying connected"
    Carl Addington, Lakes of Katy, Texas
    Wish
  • WishWish Posts: 7,165 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited April 4
    Could not agree more on pull...do not like that term at all. Not a big fan of lean either. As written in Hortons post but altered a bit, "The farther you pressure the ski past centerline the more......" Doesn't sound all that confusing to me I guess. We came to accept the term "counter rotation" from West Coast Slalom, misunderstood it and moved away from the term. I think "stacked" is now an accepted term that has very recent roots. To me, line load vs ski load does define things better off CL and are more easily understood when talking about certain elements of skiing. Pull, lean and connected seem to muddy things a bit. What means pull, lean, connected to someone (where, when and how much) may not mean the same to someone else especially based on age. But agree, change is hard. Look how long it took for " counter rotation" to be sorted out and it probably still hasn't.

    To your point ""...the transition as part of staying connected (rolling off the 'away' edge, through flat and onto the inside edge, while still providing some resistance/feeling some load with the upper body""...aka... keep line load but not ski load off CL. Sound simpler maybe?? :/ I don't know but it works for me and several skiers who have had a big ah ha moment.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • andjulesandjules Posts: 730 Crazy Baller
    Yes, "keep line load but not ski load after CL" also made me stop and take note after I read something like that from one of the Adams.

    I think pull/lean was a necessary concept for all of us when we were in that lower-intermediate free skiing stage, just starting to get cross the wakes aggressively. We come to understand that we need to turn towards the wake and "pull" (or "lean") in the tug-of-war sense, not the slot-machine-lever sense (ie. with leverage, with your body, not by bending your arm). In my mind, by the time you're running the course at 28-30mph, you've come to understand those basics. The things we're talking about in this thread are way beyond more nuanced, of course.
    Wish
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,048 Administrator
    @adamhcaldwell I am not sure if we can get UpSwing-Pull & DownSwing-Pull in to the common lexicon but I like it.

    My original point is that if you are past Center Line and your ski is still in DownSwing Mode all kinds of bad things are happening and getting worse.

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  • JASJAS Posts: 182 Baller
    Was at the lake the other day and heard my ski buddy yelling "pull harder". Actually was pretty good coaching for his wife to get the lawnmower started that had been sitting all winter. It worked!
    dchristmandthateadamhcaldwellBruce_Butterfield
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 389 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited April 6
    Newtons Third Law tells me I better be pulling. How else will the boat have anything to pull?

    I think what @Chet is getting at is we are constantly being pulled toward the pylon via the centripetal force of the rope. Trying to drag the boat down to prevent it from moving forward is useless. BUT, pulling to stay connected against the very real and very powerful centripetal force during the swing, on both sides of CL, is a absolute must.




    AdamCordWishKrausSki
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