Edge change

IlivetoskiIlivetoski Posts: 1,181 Crazy Baller
How voluntary is the edge change? I have read both that you are pretty much in control and I have read that it’s really not up to the skier. Also what would cause a skier to have a late edge change on one side of the course and have a good edge change on the opposite side?
«1

Comments

  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,006
    edited July 2018
    @Ilivetoski ... The difference is that on your onside you can usually get a more forward COM stack, causing the ski to accelerate better, therefore a crisper edge change. If your offside pull is neutral to back, then not as good of an acceleration, you may pull a little longer to compensate, and the edge change is slower.

    Sorry to say, "Ask me how I know" !!!

    Loving the new ZO Rev. S Plus Mode C3+
  • ShererSkierShererSkier Posts: 137 Baller
    Funny you asked, I’ve been wondering the same thing. I’ve read both theories on this site and I’m not sure. I was having a trouble early this summer getting slack and I realized I was edge changing too late so lately I’ve been making a conscious effort to edge change but still maintain my lean and tension on the rope. It’s been working good since I’ve started. I’d like to hear more about this.
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,844 Mega Baller
    It is all about speed. The more speed you generate the earlier the edge change can happen. Given that most skiers generate more speed in their onside pull leads to an earlier edge change into your offside turn.
    Mark Shaffer
  • HortonHorton Posts: 26,978 Administrator
    For more advanced skiers it mostly just happens. The things the skier does right or wrong really dictate when it happens. (I tend to pull long when the rope gets short because I load too much)

    A 28 off or less and at slower speeds I think the skier has a lot more "choice" as to when they think they can edge change. If it is conscious or unconscious choice is going to vary from skier to skier.

    Bottom like is ALWAYS if you can make enough speed before the center line to edge change immediately after the center line and still get to the ball that is the best option.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ MOB ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

    Chef23ZmanWaterSkier12Shakeski
  • IlivetoskiIlivetoski Posts: 1,181 Crazy Baller
    @Horton but it’s hard to create speed, without creating load. And the way I read what you said, it sounds like you need speed to get an early edge change, but if you load too much, you end up pulling long, how do you balance these two?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 26,978 Administrator
    @skijay so what I said?

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ MOB ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

    Drago
  • HortonHorton Posts: 26,978 Administrator
    @Ilivetoski well yea welcome to slalom skiing. We should all make more speed with less load but it is freaking hard. Yes you need as much speed as you can get to change edges early. As an example if when you try to make more speed you drop your hips and lean hard you are mostly creating load but not much speed. On the other hand if you get your hips as far forward as is practical and keep your shoulders level you will make more speed with out as much extra load. Then you can change edges early and flow out to a nice early apex.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ MOB ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

    ZmanJordanThan_Boganj2nh
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    Yup @Horton, what you said.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
    Horton
  • sandlakeskiersandlakeskier Posts: 2 Baller
    I find that you can be in control of your edge change if you take a few sets and really focus on when you want it to happen
    andjules
  • Justin_CJustin_C Posts: 215 Baller
    I find the edge change to be more a matter of whether or not it's a conscious decision. On my harder passes I need to make sure I'm not pulling too long so it is something I control. On my easier passes I settle into a rhythm and I don't think about it, it just happens.
  • ktm300ktm300 Posts: 396 Baller
    Since I am in a long running slump, I've been experimenting with things trying to find a way out. I just don't see any 55k skiers change edges at centerline. Just watched Regina's WR video. Not centerline. While it does make sense that IF you had enough speed, one could do this, I sure as hell cannot figure out how to get that speed before the CL. Ain't from lack of trying and studying. I have ridden in the boat watching a lot of kids ski at 55k and I do see them accelerate off the ball such that they could, and some do, have a much earlier edge change. The heaviest one is 115lb and down from there. The lighter the better it seems. Please show me video of someone who weighs 185 lbs at 55k changing edges at the CL so I can try to understand what the ____ they are doing :)
    igkyajimbrake
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,442 Mega Baller
    @ktm300 don't stress about it, its Best Case Optimum technique. Lots of variables including weight, ZO settings,and ski set up
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • HortonHorton Posts: 26,978 Administrator
    @Drago I'm an increasingly strong proponent of not pulling longer than necessary mostly because I see skiers who already have issues with connection compounding their connection issues by pulling long and getting peeled apart.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ MOB ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

  • ktm300ktm300 Posts: 396 Baller
    Well, @horton just moved up to no. 1 Clearly, it can be done...just not by me...yet. Horton should stay on that Denali till he runs 39.
    WishThan_Bogan
  • WaterSkier12WaterSkier12 Posts: 250 Baller
    Fin changes to help?
  • ShererSkierShererSkier Posts: 137 Baller
    I think because I've been skiing at -15 and -22 so much that I got into a habit of pulling longer and that was messing up -28 and -32 because I feel like the edge change has to happen earlier. I imagine the increase in boat speed from 32 to 34 also played into this as well. What I've started doing lately is thinking about starting my edge change coming into the first wake and it feels like it happens on time and I stay connected way better. Eventually I guess it will be more automatic from doing it so much, I'm anxious for Sunday to get some video on the course and see what I can improve!
    dnewton
  • HortonHorton Posts: 26,978 Administrator
    @ktm300 I pulled out this old video because I was skiing really good (for me) at the time and working on early edge change. Day in and day out I pull longer than that and I think it is a bad thing.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ MOB ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

    customskiJordan
  • slowslow Posts: 346 Solid Baller
    Looks great on the Denali
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,442 Mega Baller
    @Horton totally agree, just it takes time, and thinking you're a failure because you can't do it is no bueno. When I set up a ski I make it faster and faster until I can change through centerline, but it doesn't mean I'm always successful. @WaterSkier12 fin forward, bindings back, shorter fin, less beer
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
    WaterSkier12
  • WaterSkier12WaterSkier12 Posts: 250 Baller
    Thanks Drago!!
    I’m retired, son is 13 and doesn’t drink beer, yet.....That I know of ;-)
    He’s having trouble with his edge change going to 2/[email protected] off, long pull and resulting slack. He has run the pass about 10-15 times but consistency is the issue
    He’s on an Arc-S
    I’ll bump it forward a bit.
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,844 Mega Baller
    @WaterSkier12 take a look at his gate also. As the passes get harder for me if I am not high enough on the boat at the gate I find I feel the need to pull longer into 2 which flows down the course.
    Mark Shaffer
    WishWaterSkier12Drago
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,329 Mega Baller
    I took the above video and clicked on the settings button to get one-quarter speed then repeatedly clicked on the start / pause button to watch a couple of frames at a time. I dont want to be argumentative but i couldn't hardly find *any* edge changes that happened any where near the centerline. a lot of them happen in the white water and a few even happen at the fare edge of the white water.

    so i pulled up the slow motion video of regina jaquess and even slowed that down to one quarter speed. heres a screen shot of her typical onside wake crossing at 32 off (i think) and theres no way shes changes edges anywhere near the centerline.
    the second shot is from the above video of @horton. i apologize for the crappy cell phone pics of my desktop monitor but thats what i have so thats what i use.

    What am i missing here? to my eye i dont see these edge changes actually happening any where near centerline and we *are* looking at a typical good side pull of the very best female skier in the world. is it me, or am i the only one who cant see the emperors new clothes? (ps -dont shoot the messenger).



    GaryWilkinson
  • WishWish Posts: 7,680 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @mwetskier CL is where the process starts and in some cases even before that. I see edge change as a range from where the ski starts to role to new edge and when it's actually on the new edge. I think when someone says you want to get an earlier edge change, they are speaking in terms of a range. The edge having changed happens as you say...white water or just outside for us mortals.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Horton
  • WishWish Posts: 7,680 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Prob one of the best at early edge change. You can clearly see the transition happening at CL. And any excuse to post TWhisperer is worth posting

    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    bf`jipster43Glydonmopowpow
  • A_BA_B Posts: 4,048 Mega Baller
    Boat speed and rope length play a pretty big role in when and where the actual change happens. 36 mph and shorter line creates more speed to allow the ski to cast out so I think the edge change can happen sooner than say 28 off at 34 mph.

    Nate looks like he changes edge behind the boat and comes off the second wake on edge more than most and sometimes it looks like he changes at the first wake. But he gets crazy angle off the ball.

    From WSM article:

    Coach Gordon Rathbun, who recently hosted Smith, Chris Parrish, Thomas Degasperi and Will Asher for a tournament in Acapulco earlier this year, had this to say about Smith’s distinctive edge change; “He transitions early, dead center behind the boat, while the other guys are pulling past the centerline. When you edge past the centerline of the boat the boat pulls your arms away from you while putting your ski on the inside edge sooner and harder.”

    Smith’s view of his edge change is consistent with Rathbun’s analysis. He says, “Edging out of the turn I try to have my hardest load between the white wash and the first wake. When I start my transition behind the boat, I’m releasing the ski with my lower body onto its turning edge while maintaining line tension with a focus on back arm pressure (left arm when cutting to the left) that helps the ski move away from me.”

    Smith’s connection to the handle during this moment is what really stands out. Since his arms (especially his elbows) don’t get pulled away from his body, he’s able to maintain a balanced position on the ski while he creates more space before the buoy. “At this point, I think about standing tall and pushing the front of the ski in the water,” explains Smith. “That’s something that Scott Tynan used to tell me at a young age. I lift my heels and push my weight to the balls of my feet. I’m driving the ski with my front foot and toes.”



    j2nhballsohardDaveD
  • HortonHorton Posts: 26,978 Administrator
    when do you think this started?


    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ MOB ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

    j2nh
  • coach3coach3 Posts: 57 Baller
    First wake
    Horton
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,329 Mega Baller
    i guess i prefer the word ' transition ' rather than ' edge change ' because a transition is by definition a process with a beginning middle and end. the concept of an actual *change* of the edges, on the other hand, seems like a pretty brief and defined moment - that instant when the skier is no longer riding one edge of the ski, but instead is riding the other edge. semantics? for sure, but slalom theory is already complex enough that i think any effort to clarify what we mean is effort well spent. as always, imo.
    Dragoscorban2j2nh

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file