When to turn into gate at -32?

Buoyhead69Buoyhead69 Posts: 75 Baller
edited September 2018 in Technique & Theory
As I’ve been shortening the line this year one of my biggest conundrums is when to turn into the gate. I remember skiing right to 1 ball (couldn’t get wide) when I was struggling with my -28. Now Im running it regularly & I get a good gate & wide to 1 at -28 but the same thing is happening with -32 and my training loop which gives me a -30. Haven’t run -32, finally got all 6 at my training loop (-30) this week but I don’t get consistently wide at 1. Today I skied with a guy who’s a lot better than me and he told me to start my turn in when about half the boat is through the gate. To this point I’ve started my turn in by feel but generally waiting to see front of the boat enter the gate before turning in. He said pretty much at these line lengths I should be waiting for more of the boat to pass the gate ball and look for the gate ball to be at a specific place on the boat. How many of you short line guys start your turn into the gate when a specific part of the boat passes the gate ball?
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Comments

  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,844 Mega Baller
    I start my turn in when the nose of the boat hits the right hand boat guide. To some extent it depends on how high on the boat you are, which foot forward and some other variables. You should have a good consistent spot you use for your turn in though.
    Mark Shaffer
    Buoyhead69
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 2,483 Mega Baller
    edited September 2018
    I do look for the boat to be in a certain position relative to the gates before turning in. For 22 off, the bow of the boat is right at the gates. For 28 off, it is about 3-4 feet before the gates. For 32 off, it is about 4-5 feet before the gates. For 35 off, it is 5-6 feet before the gates.

    Not saying this is right, it’s just what I do.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
    Buoyhead69
  • Buoyhead69Buoyhead69 Posts: 75 Baller
    edited September 2018
    Interesting @MISkier because he was saying the opposite. He said try letting more of the boat go through the gate before starting my turn in. My last pass today at my -30 training loop, I let almost half the boat go through the gate before turning in and I had a good wide 1 (still didn’t run the pass but it was my best shot). He skis nationals (you probably know him he a lot of tournament here in MI) and I believe he said he looks for a point about half way up the boat to start turning in for a -35. I know you said this is what works for you so obviously many ways to approach this. But still interesting that it is the opposite approach. BTW I’m LFF.
  • jimskijimski Posts: 336 Baller
    What @MISkier said
    thats about what I look for
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 2,483 Mega Baller
    I am also LFF. There were several skiers on this forum here that advised me to turn in earlier when I could not run -32 and frequently missed -28. That made a difference for me.

    For full disclosure, at that time I was turning in at the exact same point for all my line lengths - when the back of the boat went through the gates. Way too late on all of those. Some said, at the time, since the rope is shorter and you are closer to the boat, keeping the same turn in point would make the the turn in for the gates late. So, it seems to me that turning in later as you get shorter would make it worse.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
    Buoyhead69jimski
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 2,483 Mega Baller
    One main thing to keep in mind: your timing for the turn in will not yield results without the proper width and your ability to advance up on the boat for the pullout and glide.

    At -32, you should be nearly even with the engine box at the time you turn in for the gate.

    If you want to get wide at 1 ball, you better be wide before the gate.

    Also, if you are skiing right at one ball, it could be that you are pulling too long and/or not changing edges with connection to the boat. Change edge, then reach into the turn. If you reach before changing, you give away all your outbound direction and are narrow and straight at the buoy.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
    Than_BoganBuoyhead69Mastercraftlpskier
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,888 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Have a look at the thread "Where Does The Skier Cross The Center Line"
    I posted a Short Video Clip of Andy Mapple @32off should answer your question.

    "Another Ball Bites The Dust”

    MISkierBuoyhead69
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 2,483 Mega Baller
    Here is a screen grab from that video when Andy turns in. I'm not sure the speed he is skiing (I would assume 36) nor any impact of that on changing the turn in point. I don't change my turn in point from 34 to 36 and I'm not sure if I am supposed to.

    @lpskier, what did you dislike about my previous post on width and edge change in this thread? What am I missing?


    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
    Buoyhead69
  • bf`bf` Posts: 130 Baller
    Semi-related to this thread: Since switching to the CG fin I've had to adjust my gate timing a bit. I'm RFF, and it seems that if I turn in where I did with the standard fin I miss my gates early.
  • Buoyhead69Buoyhead69 Posts: 75 Baller
    edited September 2018
    @Stevie Boy that Mapple video is phenomenal thank you. Definitely spells it out for me. Noodles in the water to mimic gate placement? Wow such technical attention to detail what a phenomenal training tool. And @lpskier I’m also a little curious why the dislike for the @MISkier post... seems like he’s given me pretty solid feedback. Thanks everyone.
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,442 Mega Baller
    Probably has something to do with the "up on the engine box @ 32 "
    Or a thumb. Why do people care so much about a dislike?
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 2,483 Mega Baller
    @Drago, don’t care about the dislike. Just want to know what info is incorrect. My gauge on width is almost to the motor box at -32, even with the motor box at -35, even with the pylon at -38 and beyond.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
  • KillerKiller Posts: 360 ★★★★Quad Panda Award Recipient ★★★★
    edited September 2018
    Whats been noted re:using the boats position relative to the guides on turning in is challenging because A. How high on the boat you are will change your path into 1 and B. Rope length will change when you have to turn in. @miskier can use this method because he knows where he needs to turn in for each line length and he can establish the same width. I have typically used this method as well but I'm trying now at turning in when 1 ball and the left hand gate buoy line up. Find it's typically 1/2 a boat length before the gates @ 32

    This will establish the same turn in point at each line length. The only time I find it challenging is when the glare is bad...

    Something to consider
    Buoyhead69bf`jimskiskierjp
  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,442 Mega Baller
    “I get it, but “The engine box” is about 4’ long, so which part of the engine box does he want to be even with?
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 2,483 Mega Baller
    Ah, the back of the engine box for -32, middle for -35.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
    Drago
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,448 Mega Baller
    @MISkier @Buoyhead69 Beats me. Add „Butt Dislike“ to my string of talents. Also, since I’m in Austria, I have my phone set in German with a German alphabet keyboard and hence the unusual quotation marks. I‘ll un-dislike your earlier post.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    MISkierAndre
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,888 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Nose of the boat sounds good to me, still looking forward and not to the side, keeping shoulder square.

    "Another Ball Bites The Dust”

  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,844 Mega Baller
    I would guess that most of us aren’t wide enough based on when @David Miller turns in. The wider you are the earlier you need to turn in.
    Mark Shaffer
    Than_BoganMISkier
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,536 Mega Baller
    Until a few weeks ago I was on a KD. I was turning about a boat length before the gate. Now on a 18 Vapor and that is putting early on the gates. I had some coachimg by top pros last year to turn in earlier and more gradual instead of the turn and burn like was doing before.
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,888 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited September 2018
    @David Miller I have to ask a question, so you can see the right hand gate bouy before you start you turn, but for a short period the right hand gate bouy will be obscured by the boat, how do you deal with this to make sure you get a good gate and cut the inside of the right hand gate bouy ?

    "Another Ball Bites The Dust”

  • DragoDrago Posts: 1,442 Mega Baller
    @Stevie Boy practice and trust in his method
    SR SL Judge & Driver (“a driver who is super late on the wheel and is out of sync”)
    jimbrake
  • Skoot1123Skoot1123 Posts: 1,791 Mega Baller
    Another thing that is worth talking about is the intensity and duration of your pullout for the gates. Less intense equals narrow and more intense equals wide/higher up on the boat (as it relates to the pullout). I was experimenting with this last night and the results were distinct (for me). At 22’ off with a narrow gate I struggled getting width and angle in the course - and this is a pass I make about 99% of the time. Went to 28’ off with a wider gate and what a difference it made, early into the buoy and an overall smoother pass. Next went to 32’ off and tried a narrowing gate vs the wide gate (both with the same turn in approach) and by far the wider/higher up on the boat I was the easier my one ball felt. When I was higher up on the engine box my turn in point was approximately half a boat length before the gate, a nice angle producing progressive pull.

    So tell me, what intensity and duration do you use to get the right width?
  • Buoyhead69Buoyhead69 Posts: 75 Baller
    Thanks everyone so much. The @brettmainer post made a lot of sense. We’ve had decent weather in MI lately, I’m looking at the pullout/gate in a new light thanks to this thread. I’ve had some good passes (still haven’t run -32) and I’ve had some garbage passes. My bottom line; I believe I need to get comfortable being wider/higher on the boat at my -30 loop, and -32, than I’m used to. At -28 I can get away with being a bit narrow, then pull like a maniac and still get wide/early to 1 but even that is inconsistent and forces a late/hurried edge change. I pull too long & too hard through the wakes in general, I believe. So being wide, starting my turn in gradually/progressively, and shooting for an earlier edge change (coming off the second wake) are my goals for the rest of fall and whatever skiing I do in FL this winter. I don’t think I can progress to shorter line lengths without this.
    Drago
  • MSMS Posts: 5,105 Mega Baller
    Miller taught me his timing about 10 years back and my skiing got much better. Go with that.
    Shut up and ski
    Buoyhead69drewski32
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,536 Mega Baller
    I read on here a while back about going early, Like 20 feet in front of the gates. I've been using this to help me learn 32off. You can use the turn buoys to tell how wide your are. Then try to stay in front of them. What has surprised me with this is how patient I can be in the turns and still stay in front of the buoys. The other thing that has helped me over the last few years is learning that the gate sets the timing for the entire course. I try not to load too early on the gate turn in so that I don't get pulled up early. You can see the pros that make 32 and 35 look so easy because their timing is so good.
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 544 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited October 2018
    @Buoyhead69

    The timing your turn-in with the boat is as critical - if not more critical - than the physical point/position relative to the course from which you commit turn-in from. Add to that your "rate of turn" and intensity of the turn.

    Imagine what scenario you would like to have play out on the back side of 1 ball.......A nice long early pre-turn with your speed under control into the buoy that sets up a tight line with the boat pulling away as you begin to roll the ski back in and peel some rubber of the back of 1-ball.

    Now, go figure out where the zero ball would in your glide before the gate turn-in and try to create the same exact scenario described above at the "Zero ball".

    The trick isnt to ski 5-10-20 feet downcourse of zero ball just to get "more angle" into the gate - typically going that direction produces early separation, poor trajectory into apex, excessive speed into buoy, and slack rope.

    The trick is to turn in as early as possible on zero (maybe even before it) and still sneak the ski inside the right hand gate ball.

    ALPJrDragoBuoyhead69
  • DanEDanE Posts: 864 Crazy Baller
    @adamhcaldwell What do you think of throwing in a couple of noodles as zero buoys for reference to get things started (to be removed later so one can practice the real deal)?
    Buoyhead69BuoyChaser
  • adamhcaldwelladamhcaldwell Posts: 544 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited October 2018
    @DanE - GO FOR IT.

    I never set one up myself, however I have skied on a few sites with a zero ball.

    As a lefty on an 8-buoy course (like at KLPs in Orlando) where there is a zero ball on the gate glide I am turning in well before and inside it.

    RFF skiers may be able to push just a touch deeper as they can rotate the ski into position to accept the pull/acceleration toward CL a little quicker the LFFs.
    DanEBuoyhead69

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