Reflex Supershell 3.0

lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,405 Mega Baller
I have a Reflex Supershell 3.0 and sadly I don’t like it. This far, all it has succeeded in doing is putting me on the tail of the ski and taking most of the turn out of my repertoire. I have tried the “normal” Reflex set up with the black cuff boot (off my trick ski) and it is better.

Since I own the Supershell and would like to try to make it work, does anyone have any suggestions for improving the function of the binding? Has anyone tried removing the black housing from the horse shoe and going with the horse shoe alone? I know the back of the boot needs to be cut down, but I don’t want to take that step until I’m sure I’m going to keep the binding. And other suggestions?
John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
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Comments

  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 834 Crazy Baller
    edited April 24
    The original black-cuff Reflex shell provides more tip pressure with ankle dorsi-flexion due to the friction from the plastic tongue brake as the cuff articulates. The Reflex 3.0 with the strap brake has its upper cuff articulate too freely making tip engagement feel unfamiliar for some (imo).
    (edit: that being said, I don't know how this compares to your familiar Fogman cuff/shell articulation feedback).

    Consider bolting the upper cuff to the lower shell in a dorsi-flexed position that you find favorable for adequate tip engagement. Can vary upper buckle tension to suit. Then, trimming the back-top of the cuff may be needed to avoid too much tip rise from moving back too much (since cuff will be affixed). You can try a fixed position first (before trimming) to see if improved. Just need one bolt/washer/t-nut each side, easily removed if not helpful leaving only insignificant holes.
    Bruce_Butterfield
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 1,953
    Hi John, I am surprised you feel this way. I have Loved my Supershell for 3 years now, having switched from Goode Powershells... I like that it makes me feel ONE with the ski. I also had the Black Cuff on my trick ski, but feel the Supershell is firmer and more responsive.

    The Mods I made are as follows. First, the base of the boot is really thick, so I drilled 8 holes in the bottom to lighten it up. Second, I did the Adam Cord Mod of fixing the Cuff at a solid 22 degrees forward. This helped me keep my front knee bent and COM in a more forward position. Third, cut the top of the upper cuff even. Can't say that improved performance, but sure made it easier to get into, when you have the solid fixed forward position...I also have the R-Style Rear, and cut the front lip down, which allowed me to get forward more, with my toes under the front release arms.

    Some others felt the boot was too stiff and cut a slot between the first and second buckles to make it flex more...I felt the fixed forward position was the single best improvement.

    Loving the new ZO Rev. S Plus Mode C3+
    Wish
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,405 Mega Baller
    @Ed_Johnson @Gloersen I’m thinking I need a softer, more flexible boot, like my Fogmans, not a stiffer boot. 10-4 on cutting down the back, but as noted I don’t want to do that until the binder is otherwise working for me. Hence the question about removing the material around the horse shoe. That may give the boot some play on the plate and can be reinstalled if it doesn’t do the trick.

    I know the point of the binding is to eliminate play and I know I want some play. The question is, since I already own the binding, can I get it to give me what I want.

    FYI, I also know I need to make the boot flatter. Right now it is toes up.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • aupatkingaupatking Posts: 1,144 Mega Baller
    Be careful “pinning” the cuff forward, or as Ed said “fixing the cuff” at a forward angle. There is too much, and it’s not much at all past “perfect”. When you do, it will prerelease you at the first wake. It’s a dangerous fall, I’m sure you know. That said, if you have it perfect, it makes that boot about the best on the market (totally my opinion). Again, just my opinion but between comfort and function, I haven’t found any other boot better for me.
    All that said, I am a -28 -32 skier at 34mph. I’m not running into 38 like you, so I may not be the guy to speak for your level.
    If you decide you don’t want to cut on it or modify it, and it’s a LFF 10, I’ll buy it.
  • GloersenGloersen Posts: 834 Crazy Baller
    edited April 24
    @lpskier - concur regarding adding flexibility, although some prefer the inherent low compliance rigidity of the Reflex 3.0/4.0 design.

    It may require some irreversible modifications, i.e., you'll be the last owner. The bottom forefoot can be cut out to reduce torsional/lateral stiffness of the forefoot, as well as permit easier flattening of the shell with a heat gun to get the toes directly in contact with the ski. The toe bar may need to be thickened with material to accommodate.
    Second opinion recommended.
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,405 Mega Baller
    edited April 24
    @aupatking Size 8. I love the fit. It fits my foot better than any other hardshell I’ve had. My foot is a size 10 and the binder is snug but not uncomfortable. That is why I bought it instead of another “regular” Reflex.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • cacmancacman Posts: 75 Baller
    I removed the two black pieces that are on the side near the back and put taller ones on so the I could not lean back as far.
  • BlueSkiBlueSki Posts: 570 Crazy Baller
    @Ed_Johnson did you makes those changes simultaneously or incrementally? I am curious if you felt much change as you lightened the boot with the holes?
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 1,953
    edited April 24
    @BlueSki ... Big difference was locking the Cuff Forward. Cutting the Cuff and adding the holes was minor...You cannot believe how thick these boots are on the bottom. I counted today and I have 10 holes evenly spaced at 2-4-6-8-10, at 3/8". I am going to go back and increase all those to 1/2" today.

    Loving the new ZO Rev. S Plus Mode C3+
    aupatking
  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 662 Crazy Baller
    If you go to the Reflex site it plainly says the White cuff boot is for slalom and the Black is for Trick. I did some research and most people said to stay away from the SuperShell. I just bought the white cuff so time will tell. I destroyed my Achilles in the Radar Vabor carbonex boot so I had to make a change.
  • aupatkingaupatking Posts: 1,144 Mega Baller
    From using 3 different releasable bindings (not counting the Exo which I liked, and the baade powershell that broke my leg). I have no clue why Reflex has gone to calling the Black Cuff the trick binding and the white, the slalom.
    Black Reflex - boot was great for function but I had to unbuckle it between pass 4-5 or 5-6 because of the discomfort. My foot is not that wide, but that boot still cramped it.
    Supershell - as stock, basically promotes “leaning back”. Once I locked the cuff forward it has been the best performing and most comfortable boot.
    Edge/Syndicate - nothing I can say bad. Comfort was great but I just couldn’t consistently keep pressure on the front of the ski like I wanted. I can’t say why, unlike the stock Supershell “lean back”, but I was just inconsistent with that aspect with that boot. You may not find that at all. I do feel that was a personal skiing style issue.
    jimski
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,787 Mega Baller
    @skierjp for a long time the black cuff was the only Reflex and many many people slalomed and tricked on it. I have also seen a kid trick over 5K on the white cuff. My son still slaloms on the black cuff but he isn't a deep shortline skier (22-28 off @36mph).

    I have run the black cuff through 32 off @ 34 mph and it performed great. I see no reason why you couldn't ski the black cuff if it fit your foot.
    Mark Shaffer
  • mmosley899mmosley899 Posts: 544 Water Ski Industry Professional
    @lpskier I agree with the mods that @Ed_Johnson suggested for the Supershell, except for the lightening holes. I don’t think weight under your foot has any significant effect. The Supershell with those mods is likely the best boot available. I have been using that boot for five years now and I experimented with these mods before many were using the boot.

    My question is did you change to the Reflex release system or put it on your Fogman system? The Reflex system dynamics is completely different than your Fogman system. I never could run a pass on the Reflex system because of the dramatic difference in the dynamics from my MOB system. The boot was not the problem.

    As to the different types of Reflex boots, or other brand of boots, any one of them will work. Each has its own characteristics and certain modifications will make each work for any skier, any event.
    Mike's Overall Binding www.mobsystemrelease.com
    Sweet Home Alabama Skiing
    Senior Judge, Senior Driver, Tech Controller
    aupatking
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,481 Mega Baller
    I'm using the original Supershell with the double loop front so can't comment on that. Does the 3.0 have the heel strap? I had to let the strap out some which helped make my turns more predictable. It did take some time transitioning to Supershell from black cuff, but they're some much more comfortable. For pure performance I like the old style boot, unfortunately they were just a little on the small size. I'm using the intuition aqua liner with a superfoot insole in the Supershell. I had to reheat the liner several times before I was happy with the fit.
  • skierjpskierjp Posts: 662 Crazy Baller
    @Chef23 just stating what the Reflex web site says.
  • teammalibuteammalibu Posts: 735 Crazy Baller
    @Ed_Johnson could you post a pic of how you modified your boot to the forward angle position. Thsnks
    Mike Erb Cedar Ridge Canton Miss.
    Horton is my hero
    Steven_Haines
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,405 Mega Baller
    @mmosley899 I am on the Reflex plate and release system.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 1,953
    edited April 25
    @teammalibu...Better than a picture, which would only show a boot with a bolt through the cuff, I will tell you how to do it.

    What I did was mount both feet in my boots, just like when I ski. Stood on the ski on the back platform of the boat, and got into a knees forward, best stacked position I could. Then I had my Wife take a sharpie and outline the cuff in that position.
    Removed the boot, matched it to the outline, and drilled a 1/4" hole on each side of the cuff. Then put a stainless 1/4" bolt through with washers on each side with a nylon stop nut. Really simple.

    I believe Adam Chord recommended 20 degrees forward. I measured mine afterwards and it turned out to be 22 degrees. I believe my method of doing it is simple, easy, and matches you personally to the position you want. I noticed immediate improvement the first time I skied. I also believe the solid boot gives you a better release when you need it.

    Loving the new ZO Rev. S Plus Mode C3+
    aupatking
  • Steven_HainesSteven_Haines Posts: 995 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Ed_Johnson in the rare occasion that you wheelie, did you cut out a notch in the back of the upper shell to eliminate the chance of bruising or jamming the back of your leg/top of the boot?
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 1,953
    @Steven_Haines ... I cut the top of the boot totally EVEN across the top, no notches. The only difference I feel that it made, was making the boot easier to get into with the liner on.

    Loving the new ZO Rev. S Plus Mode C3+
    Steven_Haineslkb
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,405 Mega Baller
    @Ed_Johnson Did you take off the top buckle, cut off the top of the boot and then reattach the buckle at a lower point?

    Follow up question: What are you using for a back binder? After 18 years in a double hardshell, I’m experimenting with a kicker. So far, I have totally taken the skin off the end of my pinky toe. Ah, like the good ol’ days...
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 1,953
    @lpskier .... I cut the top flat right above the buckle, so no, I did not have to remove the buckle....However, like I said before, I did not notice any performance advantage doing that. It only made it easier to get into the boot with the liner on. Just for that reason I would do it again.

    As far as a rear boot goes, that's a long story.... Andy M. told me to switch from the Dual Powershells I had been on since 1996 to the Reflex R-Style Rear in order to get more forward COM movement. I was really reluctant to do that since I felt I needed that secure feeling a back boot gave me. In order to make the switch I had to fool my mind into thinking I was still in a rear boot. In order to do that I used my regular liner from the Powershell and attached a velcro strap tightly around the top of it. That way it still felt like I had a full back boot on. Worked great, and I still use that till this day.

    Since then I modded the R-Style by cutting down the top of the toe surface flat, and lifting the rear 3/8th of an inch with large nylon washers. This allowed me to get my feet closer together, with my toes under the front release arms. This makes the ski more reactive. Plus the R-Style gives a very safe release, which I have proven more than once.

    Loving the new ZO Rev. S Plus Mode C3+
    Steven_Haines
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,405 Mega Baller
    @Ed_Johnson I have an R Style back binder, but I’m not crazy about it.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 1,953
    @lpskier ... For me it was the mods mentioned above and the fact you had to have the right fit with the liner you use. One thin liner I tried caused my heel to move around and was totally unusable for me to ski. I like my foot to feel firm and not move around.

    Loving the new ZO Rev. S Plus Mode C3+
    Deanoski
  • BlueSkiBlueSki Posts: 570 Crazy Baller
    @lpskier I went from getting hurt by the R-style to a double reflex. It seems to work for Terry Winter, so it must be a viable option. I have been very happy with it and try to run the top of the rear a bit loose on the suggestion of Adam Caldwell. Releases have been consistent.
    jimskiMickeyThompson
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,405 Mega Baller
    @Ed_Johnson My front hardshell actually fits better than any other I have used. That is it’s big positive. I really didn’t like it at all in January with the R style rear but I’m starting to warm up to it. We may be reaching something like detente.

    @BlueSki Thanks for the suggestion but the point of the exercise is to get away from a rear hardshell, at least for now. I’ve been in a double hardshell set up for 18 years.

    I’m five sets into a kicker and I’m starting to feel more confident. At first I was gritting my teeth and hoping not to go waaaaay out the front. Now I feel like I can maybe turn the ski.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    jimskiBlueSkijayski
  • C5QuestC5Quest Posts: 214 Baller
    @Ed_Johnson How were able to accurately measure the 22 deg angle on your set up. I’m going to use your technique tonight and have a friend use a sharpie and mark up my boot so I can pin it forward. Just wondering best way to get the angle once I bolt it
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,787 Mega Baller
    @lpskier did you run out of Fogman parts?
    Mark Shaffer
  • aupatkingaupatking Posts: 1,144 Mega Baller
    If you decide to lock your cuff forward, if it feels, AT ALL, like it is forced articulation, either as you come out of the water or while you ride on flat water, I would STRONGLY suggest you let go of the handle and take some forward lean angle out of your “locking” setup. If it’s got too much forward you will prerelease. It’s not something you necessarily feel on land.
  • C5QuestC5Quest Posts: 214 Baller
    Thanks. Will look out for that. I had a couple bad releases last season that screwed up my ankle. Don’t need to go through that again
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