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Water ski GPS data acquisition

HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
edited November 2007 in News & Other Stuff
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"></font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">If we did have GPS data on a skis path in relation to the balls, pitch, roll, speed and such would it really tell us anything useful? <span> </span>I mean it would be very cool but would it be a training tool? Would it be worth money? I am not saying that I have an idea . . . .  but as you guys know I am always thinking.</font>
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<font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">Note to DW . . . . that thing we talked about today was the key. Keep it under your hat and I will show you what I found.</font>
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Comments

  • DWDW Posts: 1,991 Mega Baller
    <p>
    Drivers thought data acquisition when in it's infancy was ridiculous, now it is standard on every race car, used for car, engine and driver analysis.  It could not only tell a lot about the ski but be a great training tool for skiers and ultimately ski schools.  In engineer speak, data is king.
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    edited December 2007
    <p>
    <span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"><font size="3">Ok so lets say that we had it today. What exactly does it tell us about out skiing? How does it help me learn to ski better? </font></span><span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"><font size="3"> </font></span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"></span><span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"><font size="3">Let assume that we have:</font></span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"></span><span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"><font size="3">Path in relation to the balls (GSP)</font></span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"></span><span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"><font size="3">Speed (GPS)</font></span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"></span><span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"><font size="3">Accelerometer data (from an accelerometer, duh)</font></span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"></span><span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"><font size="3">Pitch and roll - 6 axis (Not sure how but I think this is critical)</font></span><span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"><font size="3"></font></span><span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"><font size="3"> </font></span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"></span>
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="color: navy; font-family: Arial"></span><span style="font-size: 12pt; color: navy; font-family: Arial">DW suggests position of the handle and other data feeds. Add position of head and or CG. Well that is a way cool idea but is far from the capability I am looking at. As of today lets table these ideas as future but out of the scope of this discussion. <span> </span></span>
    </p>

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  • DWDW Posts: 1,991 Mega Baller
    I think once you start to look at and analyze ski path data, you will really open up a minefield of information about not only yourself, but also if you expand and do comparative analysis with other skiers.  This data will also tell you a lot about different skis and then as you get more detailed should tell you how a fin change works out, curing an area of concern or lack of optimum performance.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    <p>
    OK DW keep selling me on the idea. I am thinking that I might have found a semi- cheap solution but $500 is not really cheap.
    </p>

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  • JCHJCH Posts: 16 Baller
    This would be an excellent tool for ski evaluation. Instead of a skier's perception of speed or position in the course, you could have a map with speeds. A ski that is perceived as slow out of the ball, but still early for the next could be actually explained with data that it holds speed better through the turn.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    I am thinking more about a general training tool. A one off tool to see how fast a ski is would be cost too much but a tool that helps me ski better is worth a lot.

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  • lkblkb Posts: 580 Baller
    <p>
    As far as my skiing goes, I suspect that entering the course with more speeed equals a better pass for me. I would like to be able to verify that with speed data from the gate and throughout the pass. If that proved to be true, I would like to see how much different that path is compared to a slower later pass. So, I would be happy just to have speed and path data. It would just be nice to see if perception is reality.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    Doesn't somebody make something to strap in a race car that tracks speed around a road racing circuit and also the line that the car ran? Seems like that would be out there somewhere.
    </p>
  • DaveDDaveD Posts: 790 Crazy Baller
    Position and speed feedback would be huge when learning gates at a shorter length.  I wasted a lot of passes this year trying to get around 1 ball without the rope laying in the water. 
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    The race car suff is out there but it is heavy and $

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  • DWDW Posts: 1,991 Mega Baller
    <p>
    There are several race car systems out there and the range in cost is quite dramatic, basically entry level at $500 up to F1 standards of $40,000 per car commercially (5 times that for unique systems (Ferrari / McLaren)).  I don't think the data acquisition part is going to be the difficulty, it is determining the correct application, waterproofing and knowing what we really want to see / read.  That usually takes some trial and error.  I think we can find a light minimal channel system that will get us what we are looking for.  I think once this gets going the expansion and next steps will really become interesting.
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    I do need to talk to Kent. Do you know if he has his deal worked out? I was thinking of handing what I had found to him an letting hm have it. I know he was working on live data and not recording from the skier. I am going to record from a box on the ski and then upload to a PC at the dock or at home.

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  • KGKG Posts: 45
    <p>
    What about monitoring rope tension in relation to position in the course also?  For me i seem to ski better when I load the rope less, or at least that is my perception.....
    </p>
    <p>
    KG
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    Yea but you are taking next level. I am working with a company that MAY give us off the shelf parts and pieces for GPS and 6 axis. I see a lot of value in things like rope tension but one step at a time. Hell the dream app is includes foot pressure hip angle . . . . . .

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  • DWDW Posts: 1,991 Mega Baller
    Strain gauge the line would give the rope tension, probably the second or third step in this process, right after JTH's hip angle measurement.  That one should be soooo simple!
  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    I like the whole concept but not being an smart enough to use the data, I have no use for it. I would like to know the truth behind the Speed thing. Some skis feel fast and some skis feel fast and stable. It would be great to get to the bottom of that.    
  • DWDW Posts: 1,991 Mega Baller
    Don't underestimate your ability to use the data.  A simple overlay of two runs will allow you to easily see what makes one run better than another or more specifically what section either improves or hurts any particular pass.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    Don't over estimate MS

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  • Old MS AccoutOld MS Accout Posts: 2,114 Baller
    <p>
    Kent from the waterski forum site has a program called Lisa and it needs a bit of work. When I had it on, I skied so fast the GPS couldnt keep up with me and we would loose data. But it would be great if you could look back at your pass and compare that to what you felt.  
    </p>
    <p>
    The roots of this are out there but there needs to be some time and money spent.
    </p>
  • DWDW Posts: 1,991 Mega Baller
    That is why I was thinking of using an accelerometer, it will keep up and have good fidelity.  Add the GPS element for positioning.  Might be able to input the balls as targets.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    edited December 2007
    That is exactly what I am thinking. In a perfect world the GPS data would be dead on but I am hoping that between the two inputs the data will be pretty good. We will get about 10 GPS points from one ball to the next. Without the accelerometer data I do not think it would be enough. We will see in the spring.

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  • rodaroda Posts: 73 Baller
    <p>
    Sounds like something I would want on occasion but not all the time.  How about a rental unit?  Would be valuable for schools as they would  become well versed at analyzing and explaining the data.  A library of advanced skiers data to compare yourself to would be useful.  Don't forget head position sensor and device to tell where your eyes are focused.
    </p>
    <p>
    -Rod A.
    </p>
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,302 Mega Baller
    <p>
    A tool that you describe along with video tool (like dartfish, I have it) and a lap top computer could be an incredible vehicle for analysis. The key to slalom and for that matter jump is efficiency. What the skier needs to learn is what are they doing from pass to pass to lose their line. In snow ski racing they talk about it constantly, "finding the fastest line". With such a tool a skier could map his best pass when he is skiing his best PB ect and then be able to compare it to his day to day training and see where the loss of effciency is. We have all learned from JB and the WCS crowd that there are different ways to be efficient. Using this tool could enable skiers to improve faster than ever before.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    I would really like to get involved helping with this project
    </p>
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    </p>
    <p>
    email me at <a href="mailto:[email protected]">[email protected]</a>
    </p>
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    </p>
    <p>
    dave Island
    </p>
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • DWDW Posts: 1,991 Mega Baller
    <p>
    Dartfish is a really good tool, but it does require a separate operator to assist.  We use it frequently in my line of work and it does help out.  I got an interesting lead on some data aq. stuff at a recent trade show, more to come on that when we get something to share.
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font size="3"><font color="#000000"><font face="Times New Roman">If you think about what we really need . . . I am not sure the GPS is necessarily that great of a tool. <span> </span>With accelerometer data only I assume we can easily ID the entry gate wake crossing and each wake crossing from there on. With time we have position down the lake at wake crossings. With 6 channels of accelerometer data we should be able to get speed (rate of change) and direction plus ski attitude. <span> </span></font></font></font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">If this is true what else does GPS give us? Is this crazy talk? DW? Is Butterfield out there??? I know there are a number of engineers who read the forum.</font>
    </p>

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  • DWDW Posts: 1,991 Mega Baller
    <p>
    John,
    </p>
    <p>
    Correct, we do not need GPS to get what we are looking for.  Given the fact that the course is a fixed set of points (balls and gates) the ski path will pretty easily define close to where the balls are.  We would be basically superimposing the course on the path data.  The GPS does make that step much easier and potentially more accurate.  You would also not necessarily know which direction in the course the data represents w/o GPS signal or some substitute.
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">So lets assume that cost is not an issue and that the data quality is good. If the data allowed you to see clear changes in speed and direction could you use it to modify your skiing?</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">I envision seeing differences in terms of acceleration and deceleration from one side of the course to the other. I can also imagine seeing the difference between 1 ball and 3 ball. In seem to carry the handle better in to 6 then into 2 and 4. Length of pull and then speed management from the second wake to the ball.</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">The bad news is that  I think it can be done for $300 but I think the right way to do it costs $600. At that price I am not nearly as interested unless I really thought it would be a meaningful training aid. </font>
    </p>

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  • DWDW Posts: 1,991 Mega Baller
    Before we had it, everybody thought data acquisition would not be that valuable in racing, now there is not a single team that can live without it.  Much of what you end up using is not what you expect going in.  I agree, that this application is very cost sensitive and that is a critical element.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    edited February 2008
    I am torn. I am afraid of chasing the COOL thing and spending a ton of money. I am sure that if someone got it really right it would be helpfull.

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    <p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">Late last year I found these 3 possible off the shelf data acquisition units. I was thinking that I could do the leg work and try to develop a new CBR product. I have since come to my senses. <span> </span>So for all of you to see, here is what I was looking at. </font>
    </p>
    <p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">Cheap but only 3G and maybe a toy at best.</font>
    </p>
    <p>
    <a href="http://www.microdaq.com/occ/pendant/pendant_g_data_logger.php#features"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#800080">http://www.microdaq.com/occ/pendant/pendant_g_data_logger.php#features</font></a><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font>
    </p>
    <p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">Designed for RC hobby but could easily be applied to skiing</font>
    </p>
    <p>
    <a href="http://www.eagletreesystems.com/"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#800080">http://www.eagletreesystems.com/</font></a>
    </p>
    <p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">Top Dollar but maybe the best choice.</font>
    </p>
    <span style="font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman'"><a href="http://www.sensr.com/gp1.html"><font color="#800080">http://www.sensr.com/gp1.html</font></a><font color="#000000"> </font></span>

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,426 Administrator
    edited February 2008
    <p>
    Hey DW
    </p>
    <p>
    How about this? Price is right and I think I gives what we want.
    </p>
    <p>
    <a href="http://www.microdaq.com/msr/index.php">http://www.microdaq.com/msr/index.php</a>
    </p>
    <p>
    <a href="http://www.msr.ch/media/pdf/MSR145-manual-E.pdf">http://www.msr.ch/media/pdf/MSR145-manual-E.pdf</a>
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>

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