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Judging From Home - (Richelle we need a lesson)

Mateo_VargasMateo_Vargas Posts: 801 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
edited September 2011 in Classic Threads
Noticed this while looking at some pictures of a skiers opening pass. Should they have been allowed to continue or is enough displacement to not count?
Success is failure that just hasn't happened yet
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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,510 Administrator
    Look at the next frame....

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,510 Administrator
    edited September 2011

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,510 Administrator
    Tip of ski went inside but bindings went outside. Legal. looks to me like she trusts the Bubble Buoy.

    From bottom shot it is clear to me that she is good.

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  • Mateo_VargasMateo_Vargas Posts: 801 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Looks like a ride over to me.

    10.03 A Miss
    It is a miss to ride inside a turn buoy or outside the entrance or exit gate, or to ride over, straddle, or jump a turn buoy, but there is no penalty for grazing a turn or gate buoy with the ski or part of the body. ―Riding over‖ shall be defined as hitting a turn or gate buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it. Hitting a turn or exit gate buoy less severely shall be considered as ―grazing.‖ (See chart in appendix)
    Success is failure that just hasn't happened yet
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,510 Administrator
    Crap! We need Richelle for this one.

    I have $5 on it is legal.

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  • Mateo_VargasMateo_Vargas Posts: 801 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I don't participate in internet gambling.
    Success is failure that just hasn't happened yet
  • BoodyBoody Posts: 613 Baller
    Because its a bubble bouy, that call would be impossible to see in real time. If the ski is not disrupted and/or you do not see the bouy clearly outside the ski/spray, you give it to the skier. Its easy to judge based on that pic, but no one is going to catch it. Based on the pic, she is riding over the bouy. I will take Horton's bet, with Richelle as the final say.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,510 Administrator
    image
    From Drop Box

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  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,510 Administrator
    I am sticking with my call but gosh. I took maybe 3000 photos last weekend and I did see this more than once ...

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  • Mateo_VargasMateo_Vargas Posts: 801 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I say the rules must be changed. All tournaments must be photographed by Horton and Dirt and those photos must be reviewed before scoring.
    Success is failure that just hasn't happened yet
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 4,866 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    That's exactly how I roasted my ankle...way ahead and came in on the ball. Must be something to the bubble buoys. Agree would not see in real time and she gets the pass though technically a ride over.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • skimomskimom Posts: 16 USAWS Official
    Good morning!
    I don't know which round that was, but from experience there were several calls that were that tough to make. Bubble buoys are very hard as that example shows. 10.12(d) For judging purposes, the front foot of the skier shall be used to determine the point at which the skier crosses the quarter, half, and full point buoy lines (or the end gate in case of the final buoy). She probably did ride over the top, but those darn things just wilt away and you can't see them. We used a new system for review which worked very well, and Horton was even impressed. Those are some amazing pictures that Horton and Dirt are taking, thanks!
  • Mateo_VargasMateo_Vargas Posts: 801 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    So who wins the $5? Horton or Boody?
    Success is failure that just hasn't happened yet
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,510 Administrator
    Boody can send me a check.

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  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,249 Crazy Baller
    I would like to think that I could have called that in real time as a miss. Still photos reviewed after the fact can sure look different than live viewing, still a miss to my eyes.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • scotchipmanscotchipman Posts: 3,989 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    In real time I'm sure we all would have called it good but if you look at the pictures you have to call it is a miss according to rule 10.03. Bubble buoys are safer but harder to judge for sure.
    - President of the Utah Water Ski Club
    - Owner at Still Water Lake Estates
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,041 Mega Baller
    edited September 2011
    Do I correctly understand that *technically* any part of the ski riding over the ball is a miss, even if rule 10.12 is satisfied -- i.e. the skier's front foot passes cleanly outside the ball.

    IF SO: That seems extremely difficult to enforce, and I'm not immediately seeing why that's a valuable rule. Is there some advantage that can be gained by sliding the tip of the ski over the ball?
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • MSMS Posts: 4,885 Mega Baller
    Horton is wrong again.
    Shut up and ski
  • skimomskimom Posts: 16 USAWS Official
    Now we have to write MORE rules??? :)
    Not calling this one!
  • animalanimal Posts: 87 Baller
    What some of us may be missing is the judge's location when making the call. If they are on the boat's side of the course, they probably would have seen at least half the buoy on their side of the ski, and giving the benefit of the doubt to the skier, called it good. Also keep in mind that the judges do not have such a close view of the turn. If the turn was at one ball, tower two is 700 feet away! Until we mandate overhead video buoy systems with instant review, judging is not going to be perfect.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,510 Administrator
    this is 3 ball and my bet is that the ball appeared inside the ski path 1/100th of a sec later.

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  • ralral Posts: 1,682 Mega Baller
    Boat overhead video should be mandatory in any R tournament (IMHO).

    IWSF 14.06: A miss or "Riding Over"
    It is a miss to ride inside a buoy or outside the entrance or end gate or to ride over, straddle or jump
    over a buoy; but there is no penalty for grazing a buoy with a ski or part of the body.
    "Riding over" shall be defined as hitting a buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from it
    position or temporarily sink it.

    If, as Horton says, the ball appeared inside the ski path 1/100th of a second later, there is no way that the buoy was not moved significantly or temporarily sunk.
    Rodrigo Andai
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,041 Mega Baller
    (copied from @ral's copying from the rulebook) "Riding over" shall be defined as hitting a buoy with the ski so as to move it significantly from its position or temporarily sink it.

    Interestingly, this rule could be considered out of date with respect to bubble buoys. Although I've never actually skied through one, my understanding is that the entire point is that the buoy head collapses in such a manner as to prevent it from being significantly displaced OR temporarily sunk! So basically this would never happen.

    Then again, maybe bubble buoys make it so that the "riding over" rule isn't needed anymore anyhow! As I noted above, should I care if someone slides part of the ski over so long as their front foot goes outside?

    And I would assume that the original intent of this rule was with respect to hitting a ball from the *outside* side, such that the displacement worked to narrow the course and thus in the skier's favor. (Pushing the ball WIDER doesn't seem unfair!) It seems bubble buoys also make that impossible, as you'd simply slide over it from the outside and end up with your front foot NOT going outside of it.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,510 Administrator
    Since you can not see the ball from camera angle in next frame it is on the correct side of the ski or under water.

    I guess it could be under but that would mean the boat judge should have clearly called a miss.

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  • 6balls6balls Posts: 4,866 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Tip probably caught it but some natural corner skid of the ski had it down-course of the ball by the time it broke the 1,3,5 plane
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • ralral Posts: 1,682 Mega Baller
    Than,

    I have skied on them, and actually if you slide over it (as the likely scenario in the picture), they get under the surface - unlike a normal one that makes the ski go airborne and craps ankles... the motivation for Dave Goode to create them.

    I think that the original intent is also to avoid the exact scenario in the picture.

    I guess that an amendment to the rules should be applied stating also that "significant deformation" of the buoy surface for the Goode-like buoys should be considered a miss as well. Video would be mandatory for this, though.
    Rodrigo Andai
  • ralral Posts: 1,682 Mega Baller
    @Horton, none of the judges called it a miss? One thing, though. Many times judges tend to be more relaxed in openers...
    Rodrigo Andai
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,510 Administrator
    edited September 2011
    We can not see what the boat and other side of lake saw. I bet it looked good from boat.

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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,041 Mega Baller
    @ral You've reminded me that ultimately I prefer human judging, despite all the errors that humans make. Only a human can really understand what giving the benefit of the doubt to the skier means, and more importantly that rules should be interpretted relative to the situation. A little kid is different from a novice adult, who is different from me, and then there's the fact that C is different from R and than opening passes are different from tournament-deciding passes.

    In fact, I'm pretty sure I got that benefit at Nationals this year. On my -22 (which I never practice), the backwash was so bad that it pushed me right into the 3 ball. I bet I "rode over" it pretty thoroughly. So far as I am aware, all 5 judges awarded me the pass.

    It's totally valid to disagree with this sort of relativism, but personally I think it is the right way to go.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,584 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    edited September 2011
    Historically we haven't had "overhead video". Historical continuity is important. Judging has always been real time - and never been perfect.

    What is consistent has been the interpretation to "give the benefit of the doubt to the skier". I agree with Richelle (!) that no new rules are needed. Depending on my vantage point, that call could go either way. From the picture vantage, there is a strong likelyhood that I would take the buoy (flash view would show the buoy on the wrong side of the ski). From the other side, I would probably score it (flash view shows the buoy on the proper side of the ski). Note that this would result in the buoy scoring as two views will view opposite the camera angle and only one like the camera. Since Bubble Buoys do not sink or displace, the relevant issue is which side of buoy did the front foot of the ski cross.

    In all honesty, if that was an early pass, I would not have scrutinized it that much if the rest of the pass was clean. Than is on the mark.

    Reality is that the buoy will probably score as skied. Advantage Boody - Horton has always been too much of a hard ass judge.

    Eric
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