Stargazer Help

hogexpresshogexpress Posts: 102 Baller
edited February 2012 in Skis Fins Bindings
Just installed Stargazer on my 2000 Ski Nautique with 5.0L Throttle body. System calibrates ok but with a skier behind the boat it's as if the system is not responsive enough.

When skier is pulled out of water the system overshoot 34 up to 36, boat then slows back to 34 or less just in time for skier to pull the boat down through the gates, then after 2 ball the system tries to make up all the time without regard to speed.

I did call Perfect Pass and there answer to put another spring on the throttle lever to give more tension. Anyone else with this problem?

Any help appreciated.

Keith
Keith Sims - South Carolina

Comments

  • GAJ0004GAJ0004 Posts: 1,059 Baller
    I calibrated mine with in multi-magnet mode, but run it in single magnet mode. My boat only has 240 HP. If you have a mechanical throttle like I do you have to pay attention to the tach as if you were still driving manually. On my boat when I am pulling a big skier I have to give it full throttle for the first two seconds and then level it off at the baseline before perfect pass beeps. If you overshoot the baseline by too much it has to search for the point to lock in. Since you probably have less than 350 horsepower with your engine make sure the crew weight is set correctly. I had a similar problem when I first got mine when I was pulling bigger skiers at 30-32 MPH. It would be okay from the start gate to ball 3 then the boat would accelerate to 36 MPH by the end gate. On my boat when I am pulling a skier over 150 lbs at 30-32 MPH I set the crew weight about 50 pounds over the actual crew weight and set the Kx to + or ++. Try that and see if it works.
    Gary Janzig Streetsboro Ohio, skis at Lake Latonka, Mercer Pennsylvania slalom,trick,kneeboard,barefoot
  • hogexpresshogexpress Posts: 102 Baller
    Thanks Gary for the info. My motor is 275 hp. I did have the crew weight set higher than actual (by 185#). I did not think that was supposed to matter that much with gps.

    When you mention multi-magnet mode do you mean all-buoy timing or magnets at both gates and 3 ball?

    I did try setting Kx n to Kx + and did not help.
    Keith Sims - South Carolina
  • Ed_ObermeierEd_Obermeier Posts: 1,339 Crazy Baller
    edited February 2012
    I've posted this numerous times before, but here again...


    Disclaimer - this stuff works with my own boat and a few others I'm aware of. Don't know why it wouldn't work for most but maybe it doesn't.

    Cable throttle boats –
    1) don't over throttle on pull up. Find a mark to take the throttle handle to that it doesn't over throttle, and take it to the same point everytime (consistant pullups and system lock-on's).

    2) lower the baseline rpm so it locks in earlier and thus settles in quicker. Around 200 - 300 rpm lower than the actual operating rpm for each speed setting works for me.

    3) Try switching the tach signal input from Normal to Inverted if you haven't already. Some boats need that, some don't. Strange but important. I've seen boats fixed just by changing the tach signal to Inverted.

    4) You gotta play with the background settings to tweak it in. I.e. at 34.2 Normal weight setting, my PG setting is 25, manual recommends 80 for a Malibu. Stated another way, getting the system to lock-on at the proper rpm so it settles in more quickly is a binding move, gotta find the sweet spot where it works best. The background settings, especially the Pre Gate setting, are the fin tweaks.

    If it's surging at three ball, in my own experience the most likely cause is that the system locked on late at too high an rpm (making the speed fast), had to make too large an adjustment lowering the rpm to adjust speed before the entry gate making it come into the course slow or slowing down at least, then once in the course still hasn't settled properly (slow 3 ball time) so has to surge at 3 to make up the difference in the second half of the course. Making every pass potentially a frustrating circus ride. Been there. May not be your exact issue but this seems to be fairly common when the system lock-on point isn't dialed in. FWIW. Occasionally mine will just freak out and take off at 3 for no apparent reason but if/when that happens it's once in a blue moon, not every set etc.
    Ed Obermeier - owner, EZ-Slalom Course Systems
    www.ez-slalom.com
    [Deleted User]
  • PT MikePT Mike Posts: 163 Baller
    @Ed Obermeier, keep posting, it's a big help. I read all the threads related to PP/ SG. I logged countless hours trying to dial in SG. Two seasons to be exact. The guys @PP were great but never got it dialed in. The one thing I haven't tried & was never suggested by PP was lowering the baseline. Looking FWD to spring & trying my last resort!
  • GAJ0004GAJ0004 Posts: 1,059 Baller
    My course has six magnets. Start gate, ball 3, and the exit gate. If you have multi magnet mode on I think it will work correctly if your course has 6,8 or 16 magnets. Once I got my baselines set I switched it to single magnet mode so I can get all buoy timing without 16 magnets. My boat works fine that way. Friends of mine have a 2008 Master Craft with both ZeroOff and Stargazer. Their Stargazer works better in multimagnet mode. It took me some experimenting to get mine set up correctly. I defer to Ed's expertise, every boat is different and will require some tweaking. I am still running the 2008 software. If you get your baselines locked in, write them down so you can enter them manually if they ever get erased. When I calibrated mine I was in the boat alone, and entered my weight as the crew weight. I have the 1:1 tranny there so there is not alot of RPM swing with my boat.
    Single magnet mode just reads the first one(start gate) and ignores the rest. It uses the GPS to time it from gate to gate which displays all ball timing at the end. Multi magnet mode reads a magnet as it passes over each one. It will give you split times based on the number of magnets it encounters. If your course has 6 magnets (start gate, ball 3, end gate in each direction) it will give you the ball 3 and full course times only. With 8 magnets you will see the times for ball 1 gate, ball3 gate and full course.
    Every boat is different. In one instance, I had 3 big guys driving and spotting for me. I set the crew weight too high. The gate to ball 3 time was hot, and I could feel the boat slow down from ball 3 to the end. I had my driver drop 100 lbs off the crew weight setting and it worked perfect after that. Since my boat has 100 HP less than today's boats and has a mechanical throttle I have to allow a longer setup for perfect pass to lock in. I am on a big lake so it is not a big deal.
    Gary Janzig Streetsboro Ohio, skis at Lake Latonka, Mercer Pennsylvania slalom,trick,kneeboard,barefoot
  • Ed_ObermeierEd_Obermeier Posts: 1,339 Crazy Baller
    Crew weight settings were also discussed here not too long ago, if memory serves I think the general concensus was to set it at 500 - 600 lbs and leave it alone. I leave mine at (I think) 550 lbs and don't change it for more/less actual weight, doesn't seem to make much difference. My boat is an '05 RLXI with a 330 hp Monsoon FWIW. Of course different boats may be different and as always your mileage may vary...

    This below is basically the same info I posted above but perhaps with a bit more explanation. May be helpful, may not be. I'll throw it out, if it's helpful so much the better.

    *********************************************************************************************

    Note that this is specific to cable throttle SG equiped boats. I've been in several DBW SG boats and they don't have the same issues, all the DBW I've seen just settle right in without issue.

    1) First thing is to MAKE SURE you don't overshoot your baseline rpm on pullup, especially on a short setup. If you overshoot the set baseline (too high rpm) it takes SG longer to settle back down to the right prm than it does to come up to it. Gauge where your throttle handle should end up when you pull up a skier and be consistant about taking the throttle handle to that same exact point every time (as much as possible) so your pullup's are consistant and you're not overthrottling the pullup.

    2) How quickly your SG engages (locks in) determines how quickly it will settle in to correct speed, which is especially critical on short setups. I have found (and numerous others have confirmed) that LOWERING YOUR BASELINE RPM for each speed will help your SG engage more quickly. On my boat ('05 RLXI, 340 hp Monsoon engine) for 34 mph i.e. I've lowered the BASELINE RPM by about 300 rpm from the OPERATING RPM (in other words rpm the boat is running at at speed) so it's engaging at around 32.5 - 33 mph speed. Again, by not overthrottling on pull up and allowing the SG to engage sooner makes it a smooth transition to correct speed before you hit the entry gate. Overshoot and it's hunting around and won't settle properly before you hit the entry gate; that's where you often end up with a rodeo ride off three ball. Lowering the baseline doesn't affect anything except how early the system locks in. You want it to lock in before it gets up to speed but not too far ahead. The adjustment from lock in to correct speed should be seamless and if you don't over throttle it will be.

    3) Inverting the tach signal probably needs to be at least tried if you're having issues. Several have reported that by simply inverting the tach signal they've fixed their issues without having to do anything else. Malibu's seem especially to need the tach signal inverted.

    4) Once you've done all of the above you probably need to adjust your pre-gate, one ball, and 3-ball settings. On my '05 RLXI at 34.2 mph (55K) the pre-gate is 25 (SG manuals says it should be 80), one ball is 18, and three ball is 20 (all lower than default). You'll have to play with it a bit but once dialed in it's sweet. The analogy is that lowering the baseline's etc is like a binding move. Once you get the bindings (or rpm's in this case) in the right place, the fin tweaks (in this case adjusting the pregate/one ball/three ball settings) are to dial it in perfectly. Note that I run a 13 x 13 Acme CNC prop (stock for my boat is 13 x 12, I think...) so my numbers may not work exactly for your boat. My prop runs a bit lower rpm than the stock prop would.
    Ed Obermeier - owner, EZ-Slalom Course Systems
    www.ez-slalom.com
    [Deleted User]
  • Phil2360Phil2360 Posts: 367 Baller
    @Ed Obermeier, I'm certainly not expert, but can make the following comment.

    We spent a fair amount of time playing with out background settings & driving approach & ended up with pretty good results.

    Have had a Zbox for 2 weeks & only 4 hours running time & are finding out of the box results to be pretty amazing in comparison to 7.0.62.

    Totally impressed with the default performance & presume a bit of fine tuning will make it even better.
  • usaski1usaski1 Posts: 724 Crazy Baller
    @phill2360 do you find the pull of the box to be as good or not a v. noticeable difference between ZO? How much tweaking have you done with it? And the jury may still be out of this, but after skiing zbox, do you feel that you will be prepared for ZO in tournaments?

    Mark Turner -- Water skiing changed my life forever.
  • hogexpresshogexpress Posts: 102 Baller
    After further testing and talking with PP I went ahead and inverted the rpm signal. GPS Mode (no skier) is all very tight times.
    After running 6 good passes/times I went back to standard on rpm signal and times were all over the place.
    I don't understand it but inverting the signal looks to have fixed it, despite passing both test that PP recommends to determine setting.
    Thanks for all the advice.
    Keith Sims - South Carolina
  • jackskijackski Posts: 263 Baller
    @ GAJ0004 If you have 8 magnets you can put them all on one side of the course, then you get another timer for the other side of the boat. Now you get all the gate/bouy times from the magnets.
    Jack
  • Phil2360Phil2360 Posts: 367 Baller
    @usaski1 Tournaments are a thing of the past here ATM. So the my PB of 10 years back is still [email protected] 6 years of divorce, property & custody settlement has lessened skiing over the past years, but just managed to shed the 12 or so kilos picked along the way & getting some fitness back & hoping to get back to 22 before this seasons out (if the rain lets up).

    My boys 11, & 15 are now getting some skiing time back again, on alternate weeks, & my experience is mostly with them. Eldest is 15 & 50kg and skiing well into 36 this summer, (Last years PB was [email protected] 34mph).

    What I'm noticing is the improved ease in providing him with consistent runs & much less segment variation if he digs in a bit.

    We've actually only had about 5 outings since putting Zbox in, but it has certainly been a very pleasant experience. The boat feels really in touch with what he's doing at the end of the rope.

    He did comment after the first few days that there was a bit of a delay in the pull coming on, but later tried C2 & said that felt a lot better. Also commented in the first few days that his runs felt a speed low & really easy.
    That was on B2 & the times were all +/- 0.01 or 0.02.

    Interesting to hear the comments of a 15 year old that are not over analyzed.

    As I've mentioned before, ours in an older carby boat, 400 cube & 1:1 ratio, Revs are low, about 2850 @34mph.
    All settings are still straight out of the box, & times are really good.
    By comparison, Sg 7.0.62 required a bit of tweaking of background settings to arrive at the same results.

    Probably not a lot of people here running around in 15 year old boats, but hey property settlement puts you back over 10 years financially, so this old tug has to stick around for a few more years yet.

    Cheers

    Phil
  • usaski1usaski1 Posts: 724 Crazy Baller
    Thanks Phil. No shame in rocking an old tug.. your out there, and that's more than some people I know. I had my last boat for 8 years. I got rid of it after it needed another $1000 in repairs to a merc motor. No problems with the Indmar yet, but haven't really had time to put it to the tests yet.
    Mark Turner -- Water skiing changed my life forever.
  • Ed_ObermeierEd_Obermeier Posts: 1,339 Crazy Baller
    My best ski buddy is still rocking a sweet '95 MC 190 (Corvette engine and PowerSlot tranny don't hurt), probably one of my favorite boats to ski and drive. Excellent condition, never a problem, why change? BTW he's a doctor and can afford whatever boat he wants so that's not an issue. It's just a sweet old boat that skis great.
    Ed Obermeier - owner, EZ-Slalom Course Systems
    www.ez-slalom.com
    [Deleted User]
  • GAJ0004GAJ0004 Posts: 1,059 Baller
    @jackski.. I had not thought of that. Which is cheaper, buying the magnets or the sensor? The sensor is $200. I only use 2 magnets. One at each start gate. The course on my lake has six magnets. I put them in there because there are a couple of other boats that have older versions of perfect pass. I put mine on the driver side since I use the storage under the bow. I sometimes place the skylon(for kneeboarding,wakeboarding) under there. I wanted to avoid damage to my sensor because of moving objects. My sensor is on the driver side. I keep it in the vinyl pouch on the side of the boat next to the driver seat. It is about 3 inches off the floor and works fine. It is completely out of the way there.
    Gary Janzig Streetsboro Ohio, skis at Lake Latonka, Mercer Pennsylvania slalom,trick,kneeboard,barefoot
  • jackskijackski Posts: 263 Baller
    @GAJ004 unless you can source the magnets cheap, the timer option is less expensive. You might find that a few people may want to sell their timers once they get the Zbox.
    Jack
  • GAJ0004GAJ0004 Posts: 1,059 Baller
    edited April 2012
    When I put the course in this year I am installing the magnets for boats where the magnet sensor is on the port side. I only need 1 magnet at each end. I have mine on the starboard side..
    Gary Janzig Streetsboro Ohio, skis at Lake Latonka, Mercer Pennsylvania slalom,trick,kneeboard,barefoot
  • east tx skiereast tx skier Posts: 595 Solid Baller
    I have a hand timer I'll sell if anyone is interested.
    Perpetual Longline Baller. Tyler Ski Club, Tyler, Texas.
    My real name is in my profile.

    www.tylerskiclub.com
  • usaski1usaski1 Posts: 724 Crazy Baller
    Yeah, I have 2 timers I don't need now. Would sell both for $100 (thanks z-box)
    Mark Turner -- Water skiing changed my life forever.
  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,030 Mega Baller
    @usaski1 email me, I know people who are in need of your timers
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
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