Different ways of thinking about the same old stuff

HortonHorton Posts: 24,479 Administrator
edited June 2012 in Technique & Theory
It seems that if you coach long enough you find that you are generally correcting the same stuff all the time but doing so in different ways. Ask the guys I ski with and they will tell you I harp on “stack” non-stop.

Part of the trick is finding new ways to approach the same problem. Back in the old days, we just said “Get your hips up”. Today I think that is a terrible thing to say. Now I generally talk about back leg flex and or pelvis direction but the goal is exactly the same as when I said “hips up”.

What got me thinking about this is that I found a new way to stay connected off the second wake. This is not a new technique but just a new way to try to trick my brain to hold on to the handle a little longer. All I am doing is thinking about squeezing the handle with both hands off the second wake. The result is I am staying connected a few feet farther and getting wider.

Anyone want to share a different ways to think about the same old slalom concepts?

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Comments

  • WishWish Posts: 7,011 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    new way to try to trick my brain
    that says it all in how I have to deal with my skiing. I will be trying this new brain tricker this evening
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,423 Mega Baller
    I like it. I can only think about one thing at a time -- more than that and it's trouble. What I determined this morning is that if all I think about is being consistent in the intensity and duration of my pull, everything else (pre-turn, turn, hook up) all seems to work great on both sides of the wake.
    Jim Ross
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,734 Mega Baller
    Like that "trick"; definitely will try it.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    [Deleted User]
  • rawlyrawly Posts: 441 Solid Baller
    And I thought I was opening a thread on the keys to long term marriage.However,I will try that technique.Thanks
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,031 Mega Baller
    @Horton if someone's hips are hanging back what do you tell them to do with their back leg. We are trying to get one of our ski buddies into that stacked position and haven't hit on the right thought.
    Mark Shaffer
    Horton
  • HortonHorton Posts: 24,479 Administrator
    @chef23 There are a number of ways to NOT be stacked. One of them is back leg bent more than front. If this is the case. Straighten both legs. It sounds crazy but I try to ski as straight legged as I can.

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  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,118
    @Horton, I understand the straight legged thought process to help yourself get stacked in the work zone behind the boat. But dont you find that hurts your turns a bit?
    Daryn Dean - Lakes of Katy, TX
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  • scotchipmanscotchipman Posts: 3,755
    edited June 2012
    I think straight legs help the ski turn because it puts more weight on your front foot. I try and have straight legs and stand tall at the apex of the turn then start to bend my knees a little at the finish of the turn with the most bend right behind the boat and during the edge change.
    - President of the Utah Water Ski Club
    - Owner at Still Water Lake Estates
  • WishWish Posts: 7,011 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited June 2012
    I tried @Horton s brain trick this evening. 28 off...very cool. 32 off .....very very cool. 35 off ...ball 1 very very very cool. Rest of the pass my brain turned on and told my hands to knock it off. Still ran 3 passes at 35 and almost 4 at 38 twice but when things happen that fast, it's hard to overide what the brain is screaming. If I tell my brain..straight legs and squeeze the handle I'll probably have an aneurysm.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • HortonHorton Posts: 24,479 Administrator
    edited June 2012
    @Texas6
    Try to be straight legged does not mean you really get straight. Remember all that really matters is where your center of mass is. It is hard to drag your ass of your legs are straight.

    Now this may not be the key for you to get stacked. My point is we need to look for different ways to think about the mechanics of skiing.

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  • tsixamtsixam Posts: 373 Baller
    Instead of just ”holding on with two hands” I´m thinking of using the handle as steering wheel off the second wake. With elbows on the vest point the handle in the direction you want to go or start to counter with two hands on the handle. It gives me extra space before the next ball.

    Tsixam
    SkiJay
  • crashmancrashman Posts: 722 Crazy Baller
    @Horton the advice I've received from this site is finally starting to undo the damage from some bad advice I got 2 years ago. Your "straight" leg and chin high advice is really working for me in the pregate- beyond that I'm thinking of keeping my elbows and hips attached and using the boat to pull my hips up through the gate. Doing that I've progressed more in the last 2 weeks than the entire months of March-May. Oh and starting Zoomba has helped with my hip action on the slalom course, but that's another thread.
    slalom addiction triggering irrational behavior
  • webbdawg99webbdawg99 Posts: 1,065 Mega Baller
    As is the basis of this post, not all people interpret what is being coached to them the same. For years I heard the phrase "counter-rotate" but was never quite able to put it into practice. However, after my ski partner got some lessons down at Trophy, he came back with a new interpretation. He told me to "twist". Although this may seem to be a small or indistinguishable difference to some, that little change in verbage opened up a whole new level of skiing for me!
  • lagdawglagdawg Posts: 41 Baller
    Chef, are his hips dragging back, or are his shoulders too far forward. I kept trying to get my hips farther and farther forward but it still didn't work. When I realized that it wasn't so much as my hips being back but instead my shoulders being to far forward then I was able to correct the problem. I tried and tried to get my hips to the handle/handle to my hips and everything in between, but in the end it was thinking about getting my shoulders back. When my shoulders went back my hips were closer to the handle.
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,423 Mega Baller
    I agree with Horton's concept of straighter legs. I think about "skiing tall". Watch CP when he is gliding for the gate. He is standing as tall as he can with his knees, hips, chest and head over his front binding. Further, I use this as a way to measure whether I'm pulling too hard. If I can't maintain a tall position in the lean (the boat is squashing me), then I'm pulling too hard.
    Jim Ross
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,031 Mega Baller
    @lagdawg I think in general if the hips are too far back the shoulders are too far forward. Your point just solidifies the point Horton was trying to make that different thoughts can fix problems.

    We have tried the get your shoulders away from the boat and it isn't the magic bullet we are looking for.
    Mark Shaffer
  • rawlyrawly Posts: 441 Solid Baller
    DOUBLE SQUEEEZE THAT HANDLE!!!! Could not believe the ease and width I got with that tip. The extra nano second that that technique keeps you on the handle is unreal. THANKS JOHN
  • HortonHorton Posts: 24,479 Administrator
    I can not say enough ... this is not the golden tip of all time. My point is we all know what we need to do but the trick is looking for new or better ways to think about it.

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  • WishWish Posts: 7,011 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    All I am doing is thinking about squeezing the handle with both hands off the second wake.
    @Horton are u squeezing all the way till you let go with one hand or sooner than that? Man....hearing that question out of context just sounds wrong. Still wanna know though.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • HortonHorton Posts: 24,479 Administrator
    As long as I can

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  • fu_manfu_man Posts: 332 Solid Baller
    @Horton I'm really glad this thread is happening right now. I just got done taking a few lessons (from a guy everybody knows) and I'm conflicted. I always tend to ski with very straight legs....what Horton said. Squeeze my rear to keep my hips up. The other thing I did was look at the pylon as I crossed the wakes rather than where my ski was going in order to stay stacked. And honestly (at least in the open water because I don't get into the course too often) I've has really good results with this. The other night I was tearing it up. However, it was pointed out to me at the lessons that when you ski straight legged your hips are automatically not square with the ski and therefore you are less balanced on the ski and will tend to put more weight on your back foot rather than having weight evenly distributed between both feet. The lesson was focussing on keeping everything in line with the ski (hips, shoulders, head) and because your hips are square with the ski, then your hip will naturally be closer to the handle (to achieve "stacked") than if your hips are slightly angled. We were working on gettng speed across the wakes with direction rather than lean. The conflict that I'm sensing is that in order to REALLY keep your hips square with the ski you have to bend your back knee to tuck it in behind your front knee. It seems like I'm hearing advice to do opposite things. Can anyone help clarify this for me or is this just a matter of different styles?
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,734 Mega Baller
    @fu_man Standing more straight is a remedy for some specific body position issues. It's not necessarily a "general recommendation."

    I'm afraid the advice you got confuses me a little. What does "square" mean in this context? Usually people try have their shoulders relatively "square" to the boat, by which is meant that a line through your shoulders is perpendicular the direction the boat is travelling. (Btw, nobody literally achieves that, it's just that the other extreme is much worse, so most people need to think about opening their shoulders to the boat a little.)

    But you seem to be saying everything square to the ski, by which I would think you mean the opposite? If so, I haven't heard any top coaches/pro talking that way in a long time, but that doesn't necessarily mean much!
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • HortonHorton Posts: 24,479 Administrator
    edited June 2012
    @fu_man
    If you got coaching from a pro coach listen to them first.

    Besides that it is all a matter of degrees. How straight is straight? How square is square?

    Watch video of CP. To me that is the target.

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  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,914 Mega Baller
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,423 Mega Baller
    @MattP -- that was my guess too! Have skied with Jodi several times and really like his approach. However, I believe I can do what he says (hips square to the front of the ski) and what @Horton says (ski tall) at the same time.
    Jim Ross
  • skinutskinut Posts: 352 Baller
    just got done skiing with Jodi and like fuman I was a little confused. I asked him why the pros skiied open and he was teaching a more closed approach. He basically told me that being open was fine but when you were open you had a tendency to get on the back of the ski and be out of balance. He said the pros could ski open and balanced. He basically said I should learn to stay balanced and that by not being as open I could acheive that. The pros who ski open are very balanced and don't shift weight to the back of the ski.
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 1,687
    I think we should get Shane to comment on that one !!!!!
    Loving the Reflex Supershell with R Style Rear !!!
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 5,734 Mega Baller
    Tried the handle squeeze thing. Didn't work for me. Oh well.

    But I very much like the idea of trying to find tricks like these to make us do what we're trying to do! Keep 'em coming! My "What Preturn?" thread was intended in this light, actually.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • WishWish Posts: 7,011 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Have you ever turned a woman on the same way every time? no. Teaching and learning is sorta like that. New angles and approaches need to be taken to get the deaired result.
    As someone that's been in education for almost 20 yrs I'd have to say that is the first time I've ever heard educational philosophy put that way. hmmm? Should I incorporate that into my next conference? That should wake up those attending.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    mwetskiertravnews
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