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Big dawg sandbaggers

Double7sDouble7s Posts: 37 Baller
edited July 2012 in Mostly Slalom
Why would a big dawg top 16 skier ski M3/M4/M5. If you have won money you are not an amateur. I don't know what satisfaction you would get winning a regional/nationals. There is a division for elite skiers called MASTER MEN.
When you take the podium, you should leave your head hanging down after recieving your medal because of shame or embarrassment.
The should be a rule change that If you ski as a MM in any event, you are declaring yourself a MM for that year. No back and forth in divisions.
What's more important, filling the big dawg slots or keeping the integrity of the sport?
BoneHeadThan_Bogan35 in the bagbmiller3536
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Comments

  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,887
    edited July 2012
    There is nothing wrong with it and honestly, I get tired of people crying about it. Masters Men has never been designated to do anything with Money so it's not an amateur/pro thing. The problem is that overall is also affected. So you can't force people into MM at this point due to overall. People need to get over it until the AWSA changes the rules. If you have an issue with it, then you need to draft a rules change proposal and submit it to the AWSA. It has nothing to do with Big Dawg because you're not required to have a MM rating to ski Big Dawg.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Double7sDouble7s Posts: 37 Baller
    The top 34 mph slalom skiers are not 3 event skiers. Why is there even a MM division? If I thought I I was the best at 34 skier, I would want to beat any 34 skier. Not just my age group.
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,887
    Some people have a personal goal of winning their age division. There is absolutely no rule saying they can't. And yes, guys like Mark Shaw are 3 eventers and it would certainly effect him.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • T8skierT8skier Posts: 82 Baller
    The rules allow skiers to sandbag. There's no really upside to a win. You should have won. The only thing that makes it hard to win are the other sandbaggers in your group.
    I think if you have a. MM ranking you are a MM.
  • WishWish Posts: 7,316 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Is there MM trick and jump?
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,887
    edited July 2012
    @T8skier This is more than just MM. By your thinking, Krista Rogers, who won W2 at the Western Regionals should have to ski open with the likes of Regina. That doesn't make much sense. This is one of those issues that just doesn't have a good answer to.

    As far as MM, its intent was to mimic ISWF Men's 35+ so there was an equitable way to compare scores and create world rankings for 34mph skiers. No less, no more. It had nothing to do with MM being pros or money winners. Same with Open. It's intent is to allow world ranking inclusion for 36mph men or 34mph women.

    Now, is there a way to improve this situation? Possibly. But until someone comes up with a rules proposal that takes all the different things into effect, then it's status quo. Just saying that an MM rating has to ski MM doesn't necessarily fix anything and in fact could go against why MM and Open are there.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • gjohnsongjohnson Posts: 289 Baller
    I totally agree with @ShaneH. The AWSA has always been about age based competition first and foremost. So why begrudge a skier who's been conditioned to compete against similar aged skiers? Winning a national title is not easy.
    Greg Johnson ~ Team Beer
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,622 MM Trick Skier / Eccentric Person
    Change the overall rules!

    When Kirk skied "up" to Open from B3 he was severely criticized by the coaches who wanted him to develop as an Overall skier. When I skied "down" to M5 I am being criticized as a sandbagger (especially when my actual overall performance falls far short of the pipe dream wild card performance I am chasing).

    Scheduling issues also forced my choice. But I skied well enough to earn that choice. Suffer whiners!

    Age divisions exist for valid reasons. Physical issues, career issues, family responsibility issues and others differentiate skiers as they age. The few who are able to cross those barriers are entitled to every "advantage" their performance allows under the rules.

    In the past when I did ski "up" I was allowed to ski the events I was qualified only by overall at Regionals and Nationals. But that seems like a painful tease when I ski well in those events and don't get to score overall.

    Skiers skiing "up" should be allowed to drag their scores into overall. If that is too difficult logistically, allow the "up" skiers to ski another run in age division for overall but not for placement. I proposed this to the Rules Committee last year but it did not seem to have enough support. Contact your AWSA reps to support such a change and a few of the overallers might quit sandbagging.

    Eric

    @Wish MM Jump and Trick exist and are quite fun for the competition!
    bmiller3536
  • schroedschroed Posts: 157 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I've had a MM rating for a long time and have traditionally skied in M3 in regionals and nationals. I've never won a regional title, but have come in 2nd many times. I don't consider myself to be competitive with some of the other MM skiers in my region like Greg Badal and Matt Brown because those guys run 39 almost every time and I've only run it once in my life in practice.

    Funny thing is last year I skied in M3 and some people were calling me a sandbagger (jokingly, but still saying it none the less). This year I skied MM at regionals and a bunch of people were asking me why I wasn't skiing M3.

    I don't think there's really a problem with the system today. I think the only change I would make is that if you've won a national title in your age division, and you're qualified for OM or MM, then you should be forced to ski in MM or OM.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,043 Mega Baller
    My proposal to throw out for further discussion is:

    A tournament should be all age divisions or no age divisions.

    In other words, MM, OM, and OW would not be offered in tournaments that use age divisions.

    Personally I find it really bizarre when my placement is artificially increased by someone choosing to ski MM. I want to see any age group championship include everyone in that age category. Otherwise the placement means nothing.

    There can and should be tournaments that don't chop up by age and they should use OM, MM, and OW to facilitate that.

    Some may feel this is a bit radical. I feel it is simple and logical. Two things I like.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    Bulldog
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,741 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    MM should be 36 mph. (Sorry for those tired of hearing me say that)
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,887
    Scot, but then there's no good crossover for 35+ IWSF scores.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,424 Mega Baller
    I am surprised that someone showed the stones to approach this topic on BOS!

    I think that at the rate the competitive side of the sport is shrinking that it really does not make much difference what division some one skis in, However Their are many reasons that the sport is shrinking and this issue does play a part in it as does the Zero Off issue, the overall cost issue the private vs public lake issue and many other issues that we seem to come up with.

    Call it what you want Sandbagging seems to be the description. Would the sport be better off if a cutoff score was mandated for a division? I do believe that their are many a slalom skier that would come back into the sport at a competitive level at the Regionals and Nationals provided that they could be competitive in a age group division without the open and MM skiers in the mix.
    I do agree that a MM or open skier in one event should have the ability to utilize his or her score towards a age group or even Open overall score placement.

    Me personally will never be MM skier or even close but I would like to see the sport grow and believe that unless we make strides in overcoming these issues we will continue to decline and the overall cost to participate will exceed even the wealthy.
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,043 Mega Baller
    @Jody I fundamentally disagree with your hypothesis. Most skiers, including me, are simply not competitive with the top skiers in our age group. The best I have ever placed in the East (including the MM folks of the appropriate age) is 5th, but the gap from me to The Big Three is enormous. Lex Brumagin, Ken Autore, and Matt Pullano all figure to beat me by 6-12 buoys even if I ski well.

    I cannot simply decide that I want to be competitive with them. And that's a good thing. It's a sport because you have to earn it. I constantly strive to get into the tier those guys are on, even though the smart money would be on it never happening.

    If we want to have some skill-level based groups to create some artificial competitiveness, that's fine. In fact INT does exactly that, and some people love it. It's a great way to measure your progress as you advance through the skill level groups.

    It's not for me. I want to go up against the best and see where I stand. I may never beat them*, but I'll keep trying. But if my victory is achieved by simply pushing them into some other category, that would ring hollower than a ... well, something really hollow!

    *Technically I beat Matt and tied Lex at Nationals last year, but that was due to terrible scores by them in ridiculous conditions. That rings pretty hollow, too -- but not as hollow as just pretending they don't exist!
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    9400animal
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,043 Mega Baller
    @Jody Secondly, what do you mean "continue to decline?" Here in the northeast, participation in tournaments is growing rapidly right now. It may be a ways from the peak (which was way back before even my time), but the trend is strongly up right now. And that's happening against a fairly bleak economic backdrop. Imagine what will happen if the economy ever gets really hot again!
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,887
    The problem is that people incorrectly assume MM to be an ability based division and it's not. It's solely for the purpose of having a cross-reference to IWSF 35+. It's truly more of an overlay than a division as it stands now, although we're treating it like it is own division(which honestly complicates things, IMO).
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,043 Mega Baller
    @ShaneH Totally agree. It should simply be an overlay, and used to do things like Big Dawg. Having it be a separate division causes problems. If you think about it, the whole idea that someone CHOOSES what division to compete in at Nationals is pretty bizarre.

    I feel the same way about OM and OW, although perhaps that case requires more convincing for many folks.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    animal
  • WishWish Posts: 7,316 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    So if it's seen as an overlay by some (who seem to know their stuff) why is there a cut off to get into it? Shouldn't we all be MM if over 35. Honestly I don't even know what that cut off is or how skiers become MM. Is it magic?
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,104 Mega Baller
    edited July 2012
    @Wish http://www.usawaterski.org/rankings/news/FAQ_Rankings.htm#EliteQual

    Not that the info on that page will help clear things up.....
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
  • clemsondaveclemsondave Posts: 368 Baller
    MM or Level 9 is a percentage, just like the other levels. The difference is that MM is a percentage of all 34mph skiers. No clue what that percentage is. I do know that I am in and out of it just about every week!
    Dave Satterfield - Richmond Water Ski Club
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 2,424 Mega Baller
    Actually MM was just that a division created for the very high end 34 mph skiers. Their were many skiers that wanted it however it has become convoluted and skiers come and go as they please, many of these skiers were the ram rods behind the division. Also it has only been in the last couple of years that the IWSF started with a rankings system for the senior divisions on a international scale. IMO The MM division could go away as it has caused more grief then beneficial. As far as international rankings go any score from a class L or R tournament will go on the IWSF rankings list in some division or another. For those that feel MM should be a 58K class it also already exists it is called international Men or women in a class L or R tournament, Any age can ski it.
    Than You might want to go and read some of the reports from USAWS on their web site as they do not paint an overall pretty picture for the sport. Truly I am glad that their are hot beds around the nation but overall their is a decrease in the sports participation.
    Less than 20 years in my region: in 1994 at the southern regionals at Jack Travers site their were 110 men 3 slalom skiers! in 2012 at Paducha their were 14 men 3 slalom skiers. this year the same group who now are men 5 came up with 25 slalom skiers...

    Perception is a lot in this sport and some of us who are in a position to listen and talk to skiers and potential skiers hear what they have to say and their perception can be far different from some of you on these boards, good-bad -or indifferent.

    My goal as a state level counsel-man is to help promote the sport to all participants as a whole and to listen to those that elected me to help create a atmosphere of fair play in competition.
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,887
    I honestly think that the fact that there IS a cutoff is what spurs so much of the confusion. The interesting thing is that Big Dawg doesn't even require an MM rating.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • ntxntx Posts: 823 Crazy Baller
    @Than If you feel the same way about OM and OW, you don't get to see Nate(M1) -vs- Chris(M2) How many M2 don't walk to the dock if the tower is standing there?
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,043 Mega Baller
    @ntx I think you are misinterpretting. I am in no way trying to get rid of OM or OW. I just don't think they belong in the same tournament with M1/M2 and W1/W2. I fully support the notion of open competition, without regard to age (except indirectly due to speed differences). The problem I have is when a skier gets to choose a division, which creates all sorts of weirdness. The division should be set by some obviously measurable characteristic, such as age, sex, and location.

    I'm also totally OK with performance-based divisions (at some tournaments), but where they exist they should be automatic: certain performances put you in certain divisions, end of story.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,741 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    There was a comment about creating "artificial competiveness" using performance based divisions. I have to disagree with this being a bad thing. If I am not mistaken this is what tennis does. What about a handicap as in golf?

    Even so there will always be cries of "sandbagger" if there is anything other than strict age based divisions.
  • ntxntx Posts: 823 Crazy Baller
    @Than I guess I don't understand. With the exception of regionals and nationals, does tournament placement even matter? You are skiing against yourself and to get a score that qualifies you to ski regionals and nationals. Who cares what place you finish in a class c tourn that has 30 skiers and 6 age/sex groups. The rankings list gives you a indication where you fall against other skiers.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,043 Mega Baller
    I didn't say artificial competitiveness was a bad thing. Skillbased divisions are used in INT and enjoyed by many. We also use a very fun handicapping scheme in a tournament that I help run.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    ral
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 1,019 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    If you dont like the "sandbagging" show up to Okee and give them a hard time. Maybe they will tell you why they choose to ski M3 vs MM. I think for the most part the system works, there are exceptions. This said no matter how you modify the rules, I think someone will always have something to complain about.

    When I was fortunate enough to find myself at the crossover point between M3 and MM I chose MM. I thought of it as a choice between a chance for M3 gold or top 10 MM and personally I choose the latter. It is personal and I am not criticizing others for looking at it differently.
  • gjohnsongjohnson Posts: 289 Baller
    For the record, the IWSF started keeping track of old men scores in October 2009. I'm not sure what the whole point of this thread is anymore. I show up to tournaments to push myself and hang out with friends.
    Greg Johnson ~ Team Beer
  • JoeMacJoeMac Posts: 47 Baller
    I am skiing in Mens 4 and Big Dawg. I have never placed in top 5 at Nationals in my own division. I didn't even place at my regionals this year. When I get a medal at Nationals I will start skiing in MM.
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