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Should a legal resident with a green card be allowed to ski at US Nationals

dislanddisland Posts: 1,201 Crazy Baller
edited February 2013 in Rules/Politics/Issues

Should a legal resident with a green card be allowed to ski at US Nationals 55 votes

Yes
52%
dislandSMA_BrodaBoneHead9400AggieSkierBulldogTom Andersonlathompsonjipster43ralski4xtcKrleejayskiskifreakTylerRHugh Nicholssunperchandjules 29 votes
No
47%
HortonskidawgdrewChef23RichardDoaneh2oskiFAbmiller3536lpskierskiinxsJody_SealskirayBKMickeyThompsonjackskidbskintxRichMSZman 26 votes
Dave Island- Princeton Lakes

Comments

  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,973 Mega Baller
    Ski? Yes. Win a medal/place no.
    aswinter05
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,201 Crazy Baller
    Yes
    Given the sad state of the number of skiers for Mens 2 we should do anything possible to encourage participation
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    jipster439400
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,319 Mega Baller
    Yes
    I agree with @MattP, it would be unfair to U.S. citizens if someone who isn't could metal or place at U.S. nationals.
  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,973 Mega Baller
    edited February 2013
    So if the skier was in M3,4,5 you would say no? Do you want more people at Nationals to make it seem bigger and more of a hassel to run? Would the international skiers bump US citizens from making the cut on the rankings list and deprive them their own country's Championship?

    It's not about encouraging participation for M2/w2 skiers its those skiers who can't afford to ski. As a M1 skier for me the decision is take another set or use that money to go eat dinner with friends. The M W 1,2 skiers do not have the disposable income to spend on skiing like you MW 3,4,5 guys and gals. Do they really want to spend money on a plane ticket, entry fee, hotel, rental car (not to mention I can't rent one) to go to Nationals for one set not to mention they had to do this for Regionals as well? Or use that money to pay this months rent and/or buy books for class that start at the exact same week as Nationals? For the MW 1&2 skiers participation is based on $$. We just dont have it we want to ski regionals and nationals but we usually cant for these reasons.

    If you really want to encourage participation make entry fees less for M1&M2 skiers.

    I pay for anything and everything skiing related since I was 17. My parents say, you want it you can work for it.
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,201 Crazy Baller
    Yes
    @MattP I love your passion. Do you thing there are less M2 now compared to 10 or 15 years ago because it costs too much or because more of the folks your age are wakeboarding instead of waterskiing?
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,973 Mega Baller
    edited February 2013
    @disland thank you, a passion for this sport is something I am grateful for.
    I had only learned to ski 15 years ago so I do not remember those times.

    If the same amount of people getting on the water was the same as it was 15 years ago that more today would be wake boarding, because it is "easier" or has a quicker learning curve, is more friendly to having more friends around in the boat and almost anyone can learn to get up on their first try.

    A good question would be are those that were "lost" to wake boarding in WWA, or INT? If the answer is no then we lost people to other sports, not just wake boarding.

    Wake boarding is easily done on a large public lake where skiing is not.

    If you want to place "blame" do it on the skier parents who allowed their child to fall in love with wake boarding.... @E_T chime in here.

    I think we will find out about todays M2 ages skiers when they graduate into M3. If the numbers stay the same we know that there is possibly a relation to wake boarding, but if it goes up could we figure that $ was a factor for these skiers?

    I am the President/Founder of a Water Ski and Wake Board club at my University. Do I see intrest in both events? Yes, Equally at the moment? Yes. There is still hope for the future. If you are a skier and not supporting a local University team or tournaments you are doing a diservice to the future of the sport.

    and I now dismount my soap box
  • ralral Posts: 1,682 Mega Baller
    Yes
    Should a person that is allowed to represent a country in the World Championships not be allowed to compete and win medals in the Nationals for that same country? Does not make any sense to me...

    IWWF World Championships rule 4.02: Skier Eligibility

    A Federation may select its team in any manner it desires; however, each team member must be a citizen or applying for citizenship of the country which the Federation represents. In case of doubt as to the nationality of a competitor, the Judges normally will refer to his passport. If a skier does not have a passport from the country for which he is skiing, he must prove residence in the country for at least five years and membership in an affiliated club of the Federation.
    Rodrigo Andai
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 2,779 Mega Baller
    No
    To me the question is can they ski nationals in another country.

    Per the rule @ral posted, some countries allow individuals to have many passports others not so much. But for nationals, I think so long as the person picks one and waives the others that should be good enough.

    Like Instate Fishing/Hunting... cannot be instate everywhere.
    skifreak
  • BKBK Posts: 22 Baller
    No
    @ral
    What if they're a legal greencard carrying resident, but have no intention (or application completed) of becoming a US citizen? They wouldn't meet the requirement of iwsf. Should they be allowed to ski US Natls?
  • DirtDirt Posts: 1,527 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited February 2013
    Jmo beating a dead horse. You need an anonymous poll. It will be a landslide no.
    I learned everything I know not to do from Horton
    MattPMSntx
  • ralral Posts: 1,682 Mega Baller
    edited February 2013
    Yes
    @BK, proof needed is 5 year residency and membership to an affiliated club. If he officially declares to the Judges that he has no intention whatsoever to become a citizen, he might be vetted, but if not, what was stated above is enough proof. Have seen a case here, the PanAm champion in Senior 1 a while ago was resident not national. And he was the national champion.
    Rodrigo Andai
  • sunperchsunperch Posts: 209 Solid Baller
    Yes
    @mattp - I'm afraid that your assumption that MW3-5 skiers have more disposible income that we can pour into regional and nationals. We too have to budget in order to go to those events, possibly even more as we have to multiply airfare, food, lodging, entry fees x4 for my family. We went to both last year but for sure will not be able to afford to do so every year. Each tournament that we participate in we have to pay for 4 entries, gas for the summer quadruples for the whole family to practice, gloves/vests/skis x4........skiing is a calculated choice for us, too! Could not think of a better way to spend $$.
  • ntxntx Posts: 823 Crazy Baller
    No
    Interesting how many yes votes coming from skiers that currently are not allowed to ski. Kind of skews the results.
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,319 Mega Baller
    Yes
    @sunperch, I don't think anyone is saying that this sport doesn't drain a paycheck but fo many college age skiers it's tournament fees and travel or rent, food, and textbooks and one of those is more necessary than the other.
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,980 Mega Baller
    Yes
    My boss's son is married to a girl from Germany. They live here, she has her card, she is going to school, and no intention of moving back. She has been here for a few years already. If she skis in local tournaments, improves to the point of getting to Regional and National levels, why shut her out?

    I know there is "gamesmenship" of rules, but do you set the rules for the few that try to game it, or for the majority who just honestly want to ski for the enjoyment? I would not want someone flying over and picking spots and flying back, and I think rules could be setup to avoid that, BUT, someone would surely find a way if they wanted, to get around them....

    I for one, would promote the sport to whomever wants to get involved in it.
    skifreak
  • InboardfixInboardfix Posts: 112 Baller
    No
    In an altruistic world it would be lovely to have anyone who wants to ski the Nationals of any country ski. The reality is a true citizen will be crowded out.

    Perfect example is what is happening with our public education system. It is unconstitutional to shut out a child who is in our country illegally. There are instances where many of these children do not speak the language well (or at all) which leads to the entire class learning at a slower pace. Sure, it is wonderful we're giving these children an opportunity to learn but it is at the expense of our own children's learning (and legitimate taxpayer's wallets).

    What would everyone's opinion be if all the foreign pro skiers living in the US competed in the Nats? How many podium spots would be taken? Everyone ok w/that? I'm not.

    BG1
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 2,779 Mega Baller
    No
    @AB - It is her option to pursue or not pursue citizenship. I realize many foreigners with green cards would prefer not to get US citizenship.
  • skirayskiray Posts: 173 Baller
    No
    No offense intended, but really? It's the US Nationals.... I guess a top rated FL skier should ride up to NY and win State. Just saying.

    One of my best friends spent 6+ years getting his citizenship. He he did it so he could be a part of this country and enjoy it's benefits. One of those is skiing at Nationals.

    If it's not going to be "US" Nationals, rename it to the West Palm Fall Record....

    My 2 cents.
    Ron Ray
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,980 Mega Baller
    edited February 2013
    Yes
    To really make sure, maybe the only people skiing in Nationals should be Indian natives, and not from India.

    So what is a fair definition of a US National? I remember when I was little seeing my great-grandmother not speaking a lick of english, being from Hungary. My grandparents on both sides, were brought over, so my mom and dad were born in the US, but aren't we all from "overseas" at some point?

    Should we put a disqualification box on the Greencard application that asks whether someone can run 38 off or not?

    I doubt that there are foreign pros laying in wait licking their chops to go clean up on working -stiff Americans for a $1.98 medal and a pose on a podium, but I could be wrong, maybe France....(SIC).

    If people are here in this country legally, with intent to make it a domicile, than what makes them different than me or you?

    BG1
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,980 Mega Baller
    Yes
    @BraceMaker, the ordeal that she went through to get her card was unreal. We have joked that she should have flown to Mexico and jumped across the border, and it would have been far easier for her!

    Everyone has their own set of circumstances, but if someone is living here, paying taxes, and contributing to our society, then I just think they should be able to ski in an Amatuer Water Ski event, that they have to pay for. It's not like they are running for President!
  • HortonHorton Posts: 25,517 Administrator
    edited February 2013
    No
    If this thread gets farther into emigration politics and further from water ski politics I will lock it down.

    This is a water ski forum. Politics and religion are subjects that can be discussed somewhere else.

    The only question should be -who can and who can not compete for placement at regionals and nationals. For me it is really about the vision and meaning of those events.

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  • skirayskiray Posts: 173 Baller
    No
    Don't ban me bro....

    I say give us the panda and lock it down.
    Ron Ray
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,980 Mega Baller
    edited February 2013
    Yes
    From Canadian Nationals:

    ELIGIBILITY
    Competitors must hold a WSWC competitive license, be properly registered, meet qualification standards, and be either a Canadian Citizen or a landed immigrant in Canada (Details in the WSWC Rule Books – Classic) at time of registration.

    I did not look at what a "landed immigrant" is, but sounds like there is leeway on being in the country, but not a citizen yet.

    It seems that the voting is fairly split, and I would vote the same way whether I am anonimous or not, don't really care if people know what I think, so seems like groundswell support to change status quo wouldn't be there if our governing body wanted to look at it anyway..
  • DirtDirt Posts: 1,527 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited February 2013
    It is only "fairly split" because it is a public poll. Do an anonymous poll and see what you get.
    If you like the international rules better you can ski there (not directed at anyone in particular).
    You can already ski every other tournament of the year in the US without citizenship. If that is not good enough apply for citizenship.
    You can serve in the military and potentially die for our country and not legally buy beer when you get home too... so that argument does not fly with me either.
    JMO
    I learned everything I know not to do from Horton
    MattP
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,980 Mega Baller
    Yes
    I am surprised that people would vote or vote differently if it was an anonymous poll, and actually would be somewhat disappointed if true.

  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,719 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Just my opinion, from somebody based in the UK, if somebody resides and works in the USA, say for a period of time, after which they are allowed to compete, is it not an injustice to the sport, to deny them that opportunity and take away the competitive spirit of the sport.
    Without the need to compete and raise your game, against the opposition, there seems no point in competing at all.

    " Change Edge Early or Go Home”

  • sunperchsunperch Posts: 209 Solid Baller
    Yes
    Too many rules suck the fun out of the sport, this is supposed to be FUN!!!! Like @AB said, this is an amatuer sport.
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 2,779 Mega Baller
    No
    @sunperch - it is an amatuer sport - therefore it does not hurt anyone's earning potential to have events with limited enrollment.

    We can just as well change this argument to - Should there be waterski Nationals?
  • aswinter05aswinter05 Posts: 363 Baller
    No
    Just like with anything else in the world.. A line must be drawn somewhere. Sometimes, rules are just.. rules.
    HortonricoE_T
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