Leading and Trailing Arm - for the last time ever

HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
edited March 2013 in Advanced Topics
Loading the trailing arm (left arm going to 1/3/5) was an idea a few years ago that if you had more power in your “Trailing Arm”* you would move your mass forward. It works like a charm on the dock and a longer ling lengths. In fact it might still be a great idea for 15 – 28 off skiers.

I do not know any shortline skier today who understands the mechanics and still thinks this is a good idea. In my opinion this was an unfortunate and ill advised fad. I am sure if you search back far enough in this forum you will find example of me encouraging it. I was wrong. It is the wrong idea. Sorry I learned it from a top coach – he was wrong.
*Trailing Arm =Left arm if heading to 1 ball

Does anyone who runs 38 off and beyond disagree? Please tell me if I am way off on this

Again this is in "Advanced Topics" so if you think you belong in this group please fill your profile out all the way and shoot me a message.

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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    FYI- I am talking about from the centerline out.

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  • KlundellKlundell Posts: 432 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I tried the back arm pressure thing for a while and abandoned it quickly. Doesn't make sense to load the back arm when you want your center of mass moving forward. I think this is analogous to a batting coach telling a hitter to stay on his back foot. It's coached all the time (to prevent other problems) but not something that is actually done when you watch a professional hitter almost all of them have shifted their center of mass toward the ball and are completely on their front foot when they hit the ball.
  • MSMS Posts: 4,303 Mega Baller
    If I think about back arm going from wake to the ball, I dont get into the reverse C and tend to pull my other hand of the handle too quick and end up short of the ball or narrow. I do try to think about it going into the wakes in order to gain and maintain momentum off the wakes towards the ball.
    Shut up and ski
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    @ms when you say back arm you mean right arm going to 1/3/5 ?

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  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,783 Mega Baller
    edited March 2013
    I will reference a great article by @brucebutterfield, here on BOS at the bottom.

    My thought on leading arm pressure is that after centerline, if it is held past the second wake, it will not allow for maximum width to the ball. The handle has to be pinned to your hip, as BB article points out, but some of the load gets transferred to the trailing arm (Left going into 1 ball). I will throw out that the load is 60/40 leading to trailing as you enter the wakes, and then in reverse after the second wake. The arms are bent, and there has to be more pressure on the trailing arm to keep riding the arc out as wide as possible. I am not talking about switching the majority of the force to the trailing arm, or taking your lead hand off or just le it go for a free ride on the handle. There is still work and angle to be maintained.

    I watched Kerrie McClure run an awesome 38 pass last summer from the end of the lake, and she transferred so much to trailing arm that it looked like she was counter rotating after the second wake to the left for a split second, then coutered to the right going into one ball. That brief counter was giving her added ride out to the ball.

    http://www.ballofspray.com/tech-articles/87-what-the-heck-is-handle-control
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,153 Crazy Baller
    @Klundell - not to get off on a ball hitting tangent, but you are confusing a baseball swing with a golf swing. A golf swing finishes with weight distributed nearly entirely on the front foot. A baseball swing braces against the front leg, but does not result in a large weight transfer to the front foot. Whatever, right?

    Anyway, I don't intend to make myself out as a huge proponent of trailing arm pressure over lead arm pressure, but you certainly can rotate your COM forward while maintaining trailing arm pressure. As you are heading right into 1, you can rotate your COM forward by facing the boat or facing down the rope (move your right hip towards #1 and maintaining trailing arm load. This keeps you driving mass forward. As you change edges, the rotation changes as you begin to rotate the other way into a countered position heading into 1. Still maintaining a connection through your trailing, soon to be reaching arm. None of this is to say you don't keep load on the lead arm too. You do. I couldn't say what % on which arm, but being aware of load on the trail arm before, through, and beyond the edge change is a good thing that keeps you moving forward coming into the centerline and connected with a tight line through and especially beyond your edge change.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
    A_BSteven Hainessantangelo
  • MSMS Posts: 4,303 Mega Baller
    Back arm meaning my shoulder that is furthest away from the boat. The right arm going to 1.
    I need to keep the load balanced between both arms after the wake and concentrate on soft knees and keeping 2 hands on the handle as long as I can.
    Prior to the wake, I tend to load my trailing arm.
    Shut up and ski
  • KlundellKlundell Posts: 432 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @jimbrake almost all of these guys have their back foot completely off of the ground when they make contact with the ball. That tells me 100% of their weight is on the front foot. I think this is an important point because sometimes what we teach and what is really happening are two different things. I think that was the case with back arm pressure.
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,153 Crazy Baller
    FKNA. I knew that was a mistake to post that. Their hip rotation pulls their back heel off the ground momentarily, but they are not standing on/balanced over their front foot. They are braced against it. Anyway, my point was that you can move COM forward and have trailing arm pressure. I think you have both, but moving COM forward does not require lead arm pressure.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
    KlundellEd_Johnsonsantangelo
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 889 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I try to keep balanced pressure in both arms, and am working on slightly more pressure in my leading arm (right into 1/3) because I think it helps me move over my feet, reverse C, ski kicked out, all that stuff. If I load my trailing arm I feel even more likely to be behind my feet/ski which is a key bad default for me already.

    Last season as I worked on loading up my leading arm I found myself dropping that (right) shoulder going through the wakes into 1. So my highest priority is to stay level, then over my feet which leading arm pressure helps, and then to make sure I am "off the gas" by the center line but strong through the foam.

    Not saying this is the only or best way to skin a cat, just what I am doing
    nate93santangelo
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    @bishop8950 sounds wise to me

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  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,783 Mega Baller
    @Horton, you are skiing right now and just getting the rust off. So for S&G, on your next gate, try a slight turn to the left and transfer some weight to your left hand on your hip, think about it around the second wake so it happens slightly after, and see if you don't get wider and earlier at one ball. Nothing to lose at this point in the season. You game?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    @AB I will try it again but I worked on similar stuff years ago. I know it feels good on the dock but I have never seen it work at short rope.

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    mylemsky
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,783 Mega Baller
    That's the spirit! Just kidding. Skiing is still a form of artistic expression, so more than one way to skin a cat.

    I think the slight shift or equal loading helps keep the shoulders level. I am not sure how loading up the leading arm will keep the shoulders level, as mine always drops lower than the trailing. Most pros are not level either. Maybe it is in the heat of the battle when we go all out, the tendancy to gain leverage and lock it in trumps balance and position?

    We always said point your junk where you want to go, so I am, and always have been a leading arm loader. At my weight last year, ZO wasn't so freindly when I loaded late. I played around with the slight shift to left arm into one ball after watching McClure, and it seemed to work into one ball, then I forgot to do it the rest of the course.. duh.

    Nelly Ross contorts her body in incredible fashion, and she keeps her shoulders level, but her lower body is twisted and pointed 90 degrees and makes my old bones hurt just watching it.
    Chuck_Dickey
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    @AB I love Drew and Nelly is a doll but I do not want to ski in that position. I would guess as she gets older her skiing will evolve a lot.

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  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,783 Mega Baller
    Kristi O stayed more open to the boat and level, but I can't think of many top pros that are level. I think the key to to GET level after the second wake. If the leading shoulder stays down too long, you have to be pulled narrow. Maybe that is the confusion. ?
  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 889 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Hardly anyone is actually level. Leading shoulder is often or almost always lower. But in my head, I am trying for level and realize its not.
    Than_BoganA_B
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,783 Mega Baller
    The Mapple and Parrish side by side video is very good to freeze frame and see how they stack up. AM definetly has chest up and leading shoulder down. CP is just butt strong, so more level.
    When the arms are bent after second wake and in, that is when you can't get lean-locked with the leading shoulder down. Maybe it is just a perception thing. The top guys get it and the rest of us need to make it our brain dead mode.
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,816
    edited March 2013
    I think the below thread had some information applicable to this discussion in it from @MarcusBrown. He talks about keeping the hips and shoulder facing the boat all the way out to the handle release, which my pea brain perceives to only be possible by increasing the load in the trailing arm. Also about how trailing arm(in this case, he mentions reaching arm) pressure outbound causes the skier to unwind at the handle release. It's also mentioned in it that Jamie B teaches the same thing. What I think a lot of people would like explained to them, is just how much this load in the trailing arm increases. Are the elite skiers who teach and implement this taking 75% of the load in their trailing arm? Are they meaning they are just equalizing the load into the trailing arm? I think this is where we mortals get sidetracked. Because I think we hear "increase load in trailing arm" and our brains think "take ALL the load in our trailing arm". And I don't think, but don't know for sure, that is what's meant.

    http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/6769/anyone-understand-what-smith-is-doing-in-this-image/p1

    (EDIT)Ok, and then as I read up from what I just posted, I see that Bruce Butterfield had expanded on that same topic with just what he considers those percentages to be.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    A_B
  • ralral Posts: 1,674 Mega Baller
    @Horton, when you mention "from the centerline out" in your clarification, are you implying it it is a good thing to do from the buoy to the centerline?
    Rodrigo Andai
  • skiepskiep Posts: 252 Baller
    Trailing arm connection? So this is wrong??
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    edited April 2013
    @Ral @skiep

    At this point I am asking not suggesting

    I have been trying to add power to my right hand past the center line going to one ball. I hold the opinion of @MatthewBrown in VERY high regard and think I understand that he is recommending that I would have more power in my left hand at this point.

    I know less now than I know when I started this thread

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  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 1,595
    I agree with Matt and Marcus...Think of it this way, when you cast the ski out for the Reverse C, your goal is for the ski to create a larger arc than the handle, out to the apex, especially at short line lengths. Therefore, your Angular Momentum is in an outbound direction to get maximum width...The trailing arm is simply the pivot point to allow this to happen on the way to a countered position. Thus keeping the trailing Lat flexed, and the handle tight to your side, allows this to happen.
    Loving the Reflex Supershell with R Style Rear !!!
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    I just talked to Seth. Now I am more confused.

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  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 889 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Horton don't think so much, grip it and rip it!

    I slightly over load my right arm (into the gate) to help me move over my feet. Not sure that would work for every reader on this forum. I feel like if I load my left arm I fall back and behind my feet. Matt kicks my butt every round and he knows more than me. I just wonder if there is a "right" answer or there is some choice available?

    I also wonder if Matt has 51% or 99% in his left arm. Probably something in between.

    Seth and Matt would be two of my favorites to ask for help. If you sort out a clear description let me know
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,816
    One thing I've noticed over the end of last season and the beginning of this one is that if I load the leading arm, my shoulders have a tendancy to move over the ski rather than the ski moving underneath me.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    A_Bmylemsky
  • HortonHorton Posts: 23,823 Administrator
    actually what he said was helpful. Seth stated the obvious that it's not a black and white answer and that is a matter of perspective. What he said was wise but it doesn't help me with my personal skiing. Darn it I need to get out of Bakersfield and go skiing with the boys up north.

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  • bishop8950bishop8950 Posts: 889 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Horton, Come on up!
  • A_BA_B Posts: 3,783 Mega Baller
    @Horton, I hope your thread title is somewhat in jest. Talking about this in the future can only help us understand it better. Sharing info can only help make us all better, which makes the sport better. This is definetly not a black and white concept!
    Brady
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