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Problem Exiting 2/4

KlundellKlundell Posts: 432 Open or 55K Rated Skier
Here is a video I shot yesterday @38-off 36mph. I made 4 trips to the 5 ball yesterday and just kept choking on it. But the real problem is I'm wasting a lot of time coming out of the two/four ball. (I'm open to all suggestions you don't have to run 38 to have an opinion that might help me get through this pass more consistantly.)

Full Speed.

Half Speed.

Comments

  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,898
    Freeze frame about 6-8 ft before the first wake coming out of one and three into 2 and 4. Look where your hips are in relation to your shoulders. Your losing your stack and the shoulders are moving ahead leaving the hips and ski behind. This has got to cause a flatter trajectory into 2 and 4.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    gump
  • WishWish Posts: 7,319 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited June 2013
    I believe the problem starts here into ball one. Off the second wake the shoulders are being tuned inward to the boat causing the boat to make the edge change for you. Narrow fast one ball. Compensate with some not so good things. Then things just keep getting progressively later and later causing all kinds of thing. Your already in trouble before you ever see 2 or 4 ball. Looks the same to me as @webbdawg99 in the thread link below. Leading arm pressure worked for him (for u rt arm) off the center of the wake. I believe everything past this point is a mere symptom. As you move forward you can see the tip of the ski rise out of one ball. Your shoulders have to close. Your hips do get behind a little and the ski generates little angle as not enough of the ski is in contact with the water all the way to the first wake. You can see this clearly by looking at the spray though the turn. As the ski is turning there is a high spray. At the hook up or there abouts, it almost disappears. Then when the load comes on the line it goes back up. This is a delay that will cost you and place you down course leaving little room before ball 2 without pulling long. http://www.ballofspray.com/forum#/discussion/8254/what-s-wrong-with-my-formimage
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Klundell
  • WishWish Posts: 7,319 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited June 2013
    A good comparison. Watch his shoulders in the same place. He is making the edge change on his time when he wants to. Watch the spray differences out of the ball. You can see there is little to no hitch/dip/delay (cant think of a better word) in it. It reamins consistant and most of his ski is in the water all the way back to the wake and he uses every bit of it to leverage against. Hard to leverage against the symtom of a ski that is half in the water from an earlier cause.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Brady
  • Skoot1123Skoot1123 Posts: 1,776 Mega Baller
    This is more of a guess than what is actually happening, but it seems that you might be loading the rope right out of the ball on 1 and 3 causing you to get all your speed off the ball vs between the whitewater and behind the boat. This slingshots you over the wake and because of the speed generated - the boat is pulling your leading shoulder in.

    Coming out of two ball it looks like you are a bit more "stood up" coming into buoy 3 and then you start scrambling a bit.

    Just my hair brained ideas.......
  • KlundellKlundell Posts: 432 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @wish I definitely agree with you about the edge change into one ball... here is the still of terry in the same spot at the one ball (Handle much lower and closer to the body allowing the shoulders to say away) creating a better arc around one will definitely help me at two. However I think tip rise out of the buoy is mostly a pretty natural reaction to the transition from turn to pull. (Terry's does it almost the same as mine out of every ball (see picture of his one ball). imageimage
  • WishWish Posts: 7,319 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Klundell. I agree. Perhaps inharent of 38. But, what I see is your ski sliding further down course at that point with less recovery then TW. Still think that's a symptom of what you take into the ball. Thinking the correction of shoulders/lead arm pressure into the ball will resolve what happens after the ball.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • KlundellKlundell Posts: 432 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Although there are some problems with the one ball I'm not totally convinced they are causing the problems at two. When I watch the full speed video without nitpicking I think to myself "that is a pretty good one ball" and I'm actually reaching the two ball pretty early. I think there really is a problem at the finish of the two turn. Something do to with my center of mass getting behind the ski so it stalls out and I can't get it moving for a while. Anybody else agree?
  • Skoot1123Skoot1123 Posts: 1,776 Mega Baller
    @klundell - I agree with you about coming out of two ball - (my earlier comments). Not exactly sure of the cause, but it wasn't as consistent as the other buoys.
  • bmiller3536bmiller3536 Posts: 298 Baller
    @Klundell I agree, your ski is not finishing 2,4 and you are down course. I hope the still frame attaches. I would try to be more aggressive on your edge change. It lloks like you are riding the ski flat into two and as a result the ski is not finishing.

    Brad Miller
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,456 Mega Baller
    @klundell I'm with @wish starts as soon as you leave the gates arms out and extend. Skiing too straight into 1. I think the problem at 2 starts coming into the ball, looks like at 2 you are bending at the waist as you reach forward, you're already in this position before the ball is the picture. My 2 cents no expert.
  • ski6jonesski6jones Posts: 813 Crazy Baller
    I was thinking that you were a bit back in the turn at 2/4. Not alot, but enough to get tip rise and a momentary loss of angle. I'd say if your move in the turn was more COM lateral or slightly forward over the edge of the ski you'd come out of the turn with the ski down and better angle.

    This from someone not skiing at your level, so take that for what it's worth.
    Carl Addington, Lakes of Katy, Texas
    KlundellTexas6
  • WishWish Posts: 7,319 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Klundell. Not that you can feel wide at 38 but your path may be narrow enough out of 1 ball that the turn and finish is not adequate for a move to 2 ball. Having to make little moves to save the angle but ultimatly doesn't work. I think I see the same shoulder thing there to but not as pronounced. The path to 2 ball may be early, kinda, but also somewhat narrow and certainly fast. If the ski is not up on a high edge sooner into one, the speed has to be shut down by jumping on the front or sucking up the slack from the speed. I see up on the front at 1 and sucking in slack at 2. It's a late path and will catch up with you. That late path starts sooner then one ball.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    gregy
  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,172
    edited June 2013
    I don't think it's fair to lump 4 ball into the analysis because what happened at four was really just a symptom of what happened coming out of two and you got behind. Having said that, you came out of 4 in decent shape, you were just behind and tried to pull off a big turn to get it back. Your hips are dragging a bit in route to 2/4 but I agree it didn't cost you 2-ball, but could help it. Honestly, I think you simply didn't wait for the ski to finish before hooking up, and you were slightly out of position when it did causing it to pull you out of proper angle a bit.
    Daryn Dean - Lakes of Katy, TX
    ***Robbed out of Hundreds of Panda Worthy Posts***
  • gregygregy Posts: 2,456 Mega Baller
    I recently trained with Seth and Wade Cox. Both were telling me to counter my hips and upper body more on 2, 4 I wasn't getting my hips up enough coming into the turn. When I force myself to do it the ski comes around better with more speed out of the turn.
    Klundell
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 4,882 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @klundell I personally would take that 1 ball all day long at 38. You lost the pass at 2 ball though it wasn't so bad that I didn't expect you to run it.
    What happened in the transition from a good one over to two ball that made you ski up course, create some slack and a loopy turn that didn't finish?
    Were you "too early" to 2 ball out of that one ball or "on-time"? It looks like handle control was good but if you reach max width too early you have to hang out and no muy beuno. May sound full of baloney but I believe a seemingly excellent ball can leave you with slightly too much angle at shortline such that the skier line is too early and you have to wait...works out fine at longer passes but makes you pay at 38 n shorter.
    My two cents is nail that same gate, same set up to 1, slightly less angle out of 1 where you will achieve more efficient acceleration with less load. Keep the same handle control and find yourself "on time" into 2 and it will take care of itself.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
    Klundell
  • KlundellKlundell Posts: 432 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @6balls I know exactly what you are talking about being too wide too early I actually posted something on here about a year ago about that very topic. I don't actually think that is the problem in this case. In fact this same problem happens at -32 and -35 but I can still run the passes (here is a side by side of me and my ski partner from the same day at -35... I don't have any other videos loaded to youtube). Notice the two ball has the same exact problem
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 4,882 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @klundell an observation not an answer...early into 2 and give up handle a squeak too soon. Ride slightly back on ski waiting for ball and start to fall inward. Handle goes forward but as body goes rear handle goes very high and finish reared up.
    As you come up into 2,4 could you rise up more over your bindings (more forward) and stay slightly taller in your approach? Could you bend the front knee a squeak more rather than rear leg?
    Interested in your thoughts as I battle 38 as well albeit 2 mph slower!
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
    Klundell
  • matthewbrownmatthewbrown Posts: 340 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    putting more pressure on your right arm into one ball is not what you should be worrying about...sorry @wish ....rather, as @davelemons said, don't drop your butt back......your turn in for the gate was great and your hips moved well until that point but as soon as your butt dropped back you never got back into position....you were all shoulders/upper body the entire remainder of the pass with your hips completely static....keeping your hips from falling back at the start will eliminate a lot, however, the fact that the boat driver is moving into you 9 to 12 inches at 2, 4 could be a big reason why you are unable to get things moving out of that turn
  • matthewbrownmatthewbrown Posts: 340 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    actually, now that I've watched it again I think your gate was about as good as you could ask for...the biggest problem happens at the finish of 1 ball, that is the point where the hips die and fall behind...this is not a symptom of a bad gate, it's just a symptom of not keeping the hips moving through the finish of the turn...... as @shaneh had mentioned, hips then stay back into 2,4 which causes the ski to stall through and out of the 2,4 turn......your hips are right over the ski in the gate turn, just copy that going in and out of 2,4......i still think the driver needs to keep it a little straighter
  • skibugskibug Posts: 1,979
    I think this is what @mathewbrown is talking about. It is important to give constructive feedback to your driver as well. If the driver is moving into you on that 2 - 4 side you will definitely be delayed in your hook up out of the ball and the results will be a later line down course. It looks like they pretty close to center at 1-3-5. So they only seem to be off to your 2-4 side. At 38'off and beyond; this starts to make quite a bit of difference. This is a good opportunity for both you and the driver to work on technique.imageimageimage
    Bob Grizzi
    Wish
  • acmxacmx Posts: 228 Baller
    @matthewbrown, do you have any suggestions on How to keep hips moving? I'm sure alot of us here could use help with that.
  • WishWish Posts: 7,319 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited June 2013
    And why would i question ;-) one of THE best 34mph skiers on the planet... because I learn a ton that way. So here goes. @matthewbrown so I'm looking at the still of you in the same spot as @Klundell heading to one ball. You look like TW. Shoulders not turned into the boat. Elbows not up off vest. Outbound not being killed. Ski way out in front. So is what i suggested as a problem not relevant in his case? Is this more of just another way to skin an cat on the way to one ball? I did use leading arm pressure but only as a possible solution to get his still shot looking like yours and TWs. There's always seems to be ten different ways to say the same thing (lead arm pressure, squeeze elbows to vest...). But eventually one of them clicks with the skier and problem solved. I do see the hip thing but can that be a symptom??? My other question would be..how do you get your hips up?? I've heard that said many many times but not so much the how part from folks. Possibly many ways of saying that as well but how would u say the how? imageimage
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    gregy
  • matthewbrownmatthewbrown Posts: 340 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @wish I understand what you are saying. i think terry and i are keeping the handle a bit closer to our mass whereas @klundell has his arms out which makes his upper body come in towards the boat. i would also say that my butt is way back in that shot and @klundell has his much more centered which is the idea...@acmx I think it's a timing issue if you look at klundell he is really good when he lets go of the handle into one ball but then as the ski comes around the shoulders start to lead the hips, and the hips forget to follow in line. i think just being aware of this will allow klundell to consciously make sure he moves his hips in with his shoulders simultaneously
  • KlundellKlundell Posts: 432 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited June 2013
    @matthewbrown Thank You! I think we are making some progress now. I'm going to break the video down on the coaches eye app. later so you can tell me if I'm understanding what you are talking about. Stay tuned and I'm sure @tbrenchley appreciates the driving advice too! :) And @6balls I agree about rising up over the bindings at the two ball.
  • KlundellKlundell Posts: 432 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited June 2013
    @matthewbrown did I understand what you were talking about? @wish @6balls what do you think? @horton haven't heard from you yet.
  • WishWish Posts: 7,319 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Posted on the other thread. Love that app BTW. Didn't have the oppertunity to hear it all but you got what I was sayn.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • matthewbrownmatthewbrown Posts: 340 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    you are correct, pretty much all shoulders and no hips, just like the rest of us excluding nate.....also, that had to be 39 for Nate
  • KlundellKlundell Posts: 432 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    Nope 38 atl pro am video starting at 11:09.
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