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My unexpected results on the first set of my Reflex Binding

ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 766 Crazy Baller
So I tried out my new Reflex binding (white cuff) last night...2 sets.

I'm LFF and I run a 67" HO A1. I'm 6' 165lbs. I'm coming off a Strada front at 29.75". A normal set for me is 15off at 30, 32, 34 and then shorten the rope (I've been running 22 more consistently lately).

It took me a couple of passes to settle in and get comfortable (as expected), but I found that the release of the ski on my onside pull after the 2nd wake would just dump me to the inside (breaking at the waist and extreme handle separation) as I approached 2 and 4 ball. This experience seemed to occur more on my warm-up passes (30mph) than later on.

I was not expecting this.

Is this the result of the hardshell giving me a faster edge change than what I'm used to...or the hardshell revealing a flaw in my form (lack of handle control into the offside)...or the need for a placement adjustment...or something else?

Has anyone else had this experience?

Any thoughts or comments appreciated!
Anthony Warren
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Comments

  • bhsbhs Posts: 254 Baller
    It's been 5 years since I switched. My first pass didn't go well. I think I free skied a couple of runs until I got more comfortable with the set up. Don't panic, it's something new. Give it some time.
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,867
    The edge change becomes quicker. Which coupled with letting off the handle too soon, throws you to the inside. Been there, lived it. Let the ski roll out more before releasing and reaching.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    ScarletArrow
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,553 Mega Baller
    I am going to try to switch to Reflex after this weekend. It should be interesting last time I tried it I skied two passes and went back to my old binding. I am on a Strada also.

    Any set up differences for the Strada vs Reflex as far as binding position is concerned?
    Mark Shaffer
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,026 Mega Baller
    As a general rule, a bindings change feels like a bigger difference than a ski change. And if it's a change of "general type" (e.g. rubber to hard shell), then the change in feel may be even more.

    So the good news is this is normal. The bad news is you kinda have to give it a month of skiing before you can make an intelligent decision about whether it works for you. And you have to consider moving it forward or back, or maybe even want to consider "pivoting" it (rotate toe left or right) or "canting" it (rotate around the axis of the ski).

    I haven't used hard shells in a long time, but Jamie B showed me a cool trick he uses to set them up. He stands barefoot on the ground with strings taped to his knees, in a slalom stance. He marks where the strings hit the ground. Then he puts the ski there, and tweaks the bindings until the strings land in the same spots, indicating he has achieved his natural stance.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • jhughesjhughes Posts: 782 Crazy Baller
    Very curious to see how this plays out SA, keep us in the loop.
  • MrJonesMrJones Posts: 1,739 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I went from Strada's to Reflex about 2 years ago. You will have way more control of the ski with the Reflex and it will respond accordingly. I had to back off a lot and put less input into my toe side (2-4-6) or it would shut down quick. I also had some massive (read out of control) angle out of toe side a few times. It took a while to get used to, but I would not go back.
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,867
    I had massive out of control angle out of my heel side when I switched to reflex. I recall Mike Munn calling out after one particularly brutal crash up onto the shore.......... "Mate, Andy Mapple couldn't hold onto that. What makes you think you could?" LOL
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    Skoot1123A_B
  • LCZLCZ Posts: 16 Baller
    Having switched from rubber to Reflex three years ago, the biggest difference you will notice is increased responsiveness in almost every movement. I had the tendency, and to some degree still do today, of letting my weight drop back going into the offside turn. The Reflex system just magnified this mistake and the ski didn't want to turn until I made a correction.

    I've skied on rubber bindings since converting and will never go back. I don't know many people that have gone back to rubber after giving hard shells a fair shot...

    We can talk in more detail at the Boots tomorrow.
    Larry Zanko - Midwest skier with a dream to make Nationals
  • WaternutWaternut Posts: 1,511 Crazy Baller
    Agree with what most people have said so far. I'll add that tightening the boots too much or too little will have negative effects on your skiing as well so you kinda have to find a happy place on the buckles. I struggled with it for a while before watching a video on how Andy Mapple tightens his boot. He goes into a lot more detail on how and why his boot is setup but what I took away from that video was this: The toe buckle should be snug but not real tight, the middle buckle should be very tight but not cutting off circulation, and the top buckle should just barely be tight (Andy removes the top buckle entirely and runs a strap). Once I started using this methodology when tightening my boots, I got better and more consistent.
    JohnCox
  • bkreisbkreis Posts: 277 Baller
    I remember barely being able to turn in when I switched. It took 2-3sets to feel some predictability. I realized the top cuff buckle needed to be on the loose side, then pass by pass tightened it up. Don't look back..the rear r boot and regular front is the safest system I have ever used...make sure you periodically check all support screws on horseshoe and release! Good luck and enjoy!!!
    JohnCox
  • GOODESkierGOODESkier Posts: 1,107 Crazy Baller
    I am on the GOODE Power Shell 5 set up. I went cold turkey onto a GOODE Ski and Power Shells last year. That change revealed ALL my issues of WAY TOO MUCH MOVEMENT in my skiing. After getting settled on the ski and "refining" and CONTINUING to "refine" there is no way I could go back. Hang in there, get a friend who knows what they are looking for to watch and help you settle things out on the new equipment. You'll get your normal 22 and probably more in a short period of time if you work on the refinement. HAVE FUN!
    2003 Nautique 196 LE Star Gazer & ZBox - GOODE NANO OneXT 66.75" - Powershell 5 (LFF) - Tournament PB: 2 Balls @ 39.5' OFF (34.2 MPH) on 7/18/2015 at BIG DAWG BROHO!
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,026 Mega Baller
    Maybe. If you are as uncoordinated as I am, you may not ever be able to get little enough movement for hard shells to work for you. I tried them for an entire season because I was convinced of the safety (Fogman single plate pin release) and the potential for better edging. I finally had to admit I was never going to be a remotely consistent skier on them.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,705 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I will move to a reflex soon, but when I had a demo, the Pro skier gave me some very good advice, it comes down to the shape of your legs, if they are fairly straight, no problem if they have a curve in them, you may need to put an insole into the liner, it was explained, that when you secure your foot in the hardshell, your foot is pulled down flatter than rubber, at the same time making your leg straighter, this results in restriction of your hip movement/rotation, and you may have difficulty turning the ski on the offside, with the insole your foot remains the same as when you are standing, allowing you normal hip movement/rotation, I think I have got that right, it was probably explained to me in a better way.
    Pro = AM
    Thanks

    " Ski It Like You Mean It ! ”

    buski
  • kreipekreipe Posts: 15 Baller
    I've left comments about my experience switching to Exo's this year. Took MANY passes - but now I don't think I could give up less control. My ski level is similiar to yours - stick with it.

    The only thing I really did was double check that front binding back was where my ski mfg recommended it to be. I didn't change anything else.
  • DanEDanE Posts: 819 Crazy Baller
    @rico Just curious, why move boot forward a notch when coming from Strada?I run Stradas on my Mapple and am on the fence between stock dft and 1 hole back, actually would like to try a sequence Plate for a middle of the road setting.
  • WaternutWaternut Posts: 1,511 Crazy Baller
    I've played around with my Reflex's boot settings on my 2012 Strada. Started with 1/2" back and went to stock and noticed a massive difference for the best. Later I decided to try moving the boot forward 1/2" and absolutely hated it.
  • MattPMattP Posts: 5,973 Mega Baller
    @waternut 1/2 is to big of a move. Can't you adjust 1/4 on your plate?

    @horton I fully understand why.
  • JohnCoxJohnCox Posts: 355 Crazy Baller
    I'm loving the Reflex and R-style. I have a wide, flat foot, but did a little modification to the arch area of my front shell with a heat gun, and it is much more comfortable. I may do a little more in the off season. I also got some metal buckles to swap out for the metal straps, but have not installed them...
    Mapple T2
    www.mappleskis.com
  • makeall6makeall6 Posts: 35 Baller
    I just replaced a D3 Leverage binding that was old and torn to a new Leverage. Having all kinds of trouble. I never realized how much difference a tight fitting binding makes. Kind of happy to hear that it will take a couple of weeks to get used to it.
    Tom Whaley
  • WaternutWaternut Posts: 1,511 Crazy Baller
    @MattP Yes the front boot can be adjusted in any increment. I'll double check my notes when I get home. I remember I adjusted the boots in whatever increment the RTP hole spacing was so I could keep both binding the same distance. I was thinking it was 1/2" but you have me questioning my memory now...
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    Binding changes are a big deal. I ran my first ever tournament -38 in 2007 on an Animal front and RTP. Thought I'd try the Strada in 2008. Took me the whole season to adapt to the binding before I skied worth a crap again.
    Jim Ross
  • JohnCoxJohnCox Posts: 355 Crazy Baller
    I think you will like it, @OB. I thought I was "connected" on my Powershells before, but the Reflex is even more connected. I'm finding that, as mentioned above, finding the right setting on the straps is important. I'm snug on the bottom, tight on the center, and the upper is just connected loosely just enough to keep it from coming out. I fine that the bottom of my foot is planted firmly, but the loose cuff allows my ankle to pivot just enough in every direction to keep me freed up.

    Like you, I was on the Powershells, and have used double high wraps since I was 13. Not having the feel of a binding on my rear ankle was strange when I went to the R-Style. I'm sure I could get used to it, but I just sewed a drysuit strap to one of my intuitions, and it still feels like I'm wearing a boot.

    Next spring, I want to try a RTP...
    Mapple T2
    www.mappleskis.com
    Waternut
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 766 Crazy Baller
    When you guys talk about moving your binding 1/2, 1/4 or even and 1/8 of inch (as @Horton did in a separate thread) - how do you do that when there are preset holes in the binding plate (e.g. see @OB Reflex plate picture above)?

    I understand the slots at the top and middle would allow for an adjustment of any increment (similar to what is on the Strada plate), but don't the holes at the bottom limit the increments you can make?

    It's always been a mystery to me as to how people can adjust in such small increments. My basic thought has always been that you can go "one hole forward" or "one hole back" (each hole being a 1/4") from stock setting which is generally 29.5" on most skis.
    Anthony Warren
  • DeanoskiDeanoski Posts: 727 Crazy Baller
    on the reflex classic boot if you cut out the back piece in the rear of the lower shell ( they used to call it a flex brake) this allows the boots more fore aft movement with out affecting the skis plane
    I first saw this mod on wiily boots 5 yrs ago. I have also seen this mod on the Wilson bro boots. They also cut the top down.
  • DeanoskiDeanoski Posts: 727 Crazy Baller
    you can see it in OB picture, cut it out to be more like the rear boot
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 5,867
    This is what @Deanoski is talking about. The back of the boot dug into the back of my leg and left bruises, so I cut it down to the upper line on the cuff. That tab that rides inside the cuff would cause a binding so I cut it loose so the articulation would be smoother.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • DeanoskiDeanoski Posts: 727 Crazy Baller
    Thx Shane!! that's what Im talking about. if you don't do those mods the boot will not ski as good As it can. if modified like Shane Pic the boot will be easier to get use to and will ski great. The white cuff has the lower cuff mod when its delivered.
  • skinutskinut Posts: 369 Baller
    I just moved from PS to the Reflex. My first set on the Reflex was a bit of a rodeo. I am not sure if it was the bindings or the fact that I was just getting back on the water after 6 weeks from an injury. One thing I did notice was that I relied upon my rear boot on the PS more than I realized. It was a really weird feeling to try and turn my offside without a true rear boot. After two or three sets the boots feel more and more comfortable.
  • JohnCoxJohnCox Posts: 355 Crazy Baller
    @OB - some say you should use the white, and swear by it. Others say the black is better. Andy doesn't even sell the white (I'm sure he could get it). I'm on the black, and love it. In fact, since I wear the cuff a little looser, I don't even think it's relevant. And I don't need to cut mine down, even when I was wearing it tighter.
    Mapple T2
    www.mappleskis.com
  • ralral Posts: 1,681 Mega Baller
    @OB, theoretically, the white cuff will allow a better ankle position when heading to the wakes with the ski in front, that would be the main difference.
    Rodrigo Andai
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