Stack and Speed into Centerline

One of the things I've learned a lot about in the last year or so from reading this forum is about the physics of the edge change and handle connection. I tried to improve my edge change this year based on what I'd gleaned from this forum, and I think it helped some, but the single biggest lesson I learned this year is that you can't do a "proper" edge change, which I would characterize as an edge change that occurs at the center line and allows you to maintain strong connection to the boat, unless you have excellent speed into center line. And you can't have good speed into centerline without excellent stack. In fact, as a 28-off skier I've started to believe that handle control at and after the edge change is overrated. In fact, I would go as far as to say the following:
  1. An early edge change and handle control are not important until you get to 35 or maybe 38 off, because the fundamental skill that you need to master to run 28/32/35 is good speed into centerline and, if you have that, you can run these passes with poor handle control
  2. Good stack and speed into centerline are a prerequisite to achieving an early edge change with handle control
  3. An early edge change and good handle control will be made easier, or maybe even automatic, if you have excellent stack and speed into centerline
The above statements were meant to be potentially controversial in order to generate discussion, but the main reason I started this thread is because I want to know what a skier has got to do to go from the top picture to the bottom picture here.




And yes, I know @Horton is going to say straighten your back leg. If that's the honest answer then that's great but I would like to get into the details. Specifically, are you thinking about straightening your back leg and standing tall as you are in your cut on the way to the wake, as opposed to doing that in the pre-turn before the buoy? If so, how do you avoid auguring into the wake and eating sh*#t?
GloersenWishThan_BoganShark
«1

Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 26,964 Administrator
    edited December 2018
    @skispray This is for sure interesting winter conversation. Before I comment on your theoretical premise and question let me say that as a 28 off skier you are getting WAY ahead of yourself. If you just perfected your stance you would likely pick up 6 balls, find yourself with good connection at least to center line and the timing of your edge change would work itself out.

    Your numbered points
    1. When edge change happens is mostly something that (usually) just happens. There are a number of things that can go wrong that will result in a longer pull. I do not follow why you lumped handle control into this bullet but as you pull longer off the second wake your ability to control the handle on the way to the ball diminishes.

      So is handle control important for you at 32 off - 36 MPH? Hell yes. If you make a ton of speed to the first wake and then just let the handle out at the second wake your life is going to be hard.

    2. Mostly yes.
    3. Nope. You can be PERFECT into the first wake and then lose all at the second wake.
    To answer you final question.... You need to be a very talented athlete and train with one of the best skiers who ever lived for about 5 years. @AdamCord may want to give a more technical answer.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ MOB ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

    Gloersenjhughes
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,006
    edited December 2018
    I believe the main reason you want the perfect forward stack into center-line, along with keeping the handle tight to the body, throughout the edge change is to develop "SWING SPEED."

    Swing speed is what will propel you up high on the boat and is the KEY essential to short line skiing. Nate is the absolute best at this that I have ever seen, and one of the reasons I always hear people say, "His 39 looks just like his 32."

    Loving the new ZO Rev. S Plus Mode C3+
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 3,385 Mega Baller
    So in those 2 examples the first skier is more likely to eat [email protected]#$ than the second skier. The first example ahould have both more load AND the distance between the COM and COM target is essentially potential energy waiting to unload on you the minute something goes wrong in the most powerful of ways.

    Ive been trying this on 28 all summer and it doesnt seem to fail in an OTF direction.
  • skisprayskispray Posts: 143 Baller
    edited December 2018
    @Ed_Johnson yes that’s my understanding as well. So let me rephrase my argument as follows: Good swing speed is a necessary and sufficient condition for running extreme shoreline. But good swing speed can only be generated via good cross course speed from buoy to centerline. Thus, cross course speed is the first and most fundamental skill a slalom skier needs to develop. It’s necessary to run short rope. It isn’t sufficient because, as Horton mentioned, it’s still possible for everything to go haywire after the wakes, but I still believe it will be easier, and more automatic, for things to go right after the wake if you are in a truly fast, truly efficient position into the wakes, like @AdamCord is in the “good” image above. It seems like if the water is breaking well above your front toe while you’re pulling and the ski is generating cross-course speed that’s going to get you most of the way there as far as your short line potential.
    HortonGloersen
  • HortonHorton Posts: 26,964 Administrator
    @BraceMaker

    What?!?!?

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ MOB ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

    Dragojhughes
  • DanoDano Posts: 113 Baller
    edited December 2018
    For context i'm skiing into [email protected] this past season so maybe not qualified to sound in...... load is a topic that maybe is missed here. Loading too early off the ball is just a lot of work and compounding problems as you approach CL way overloaded. You can build a lot of speed into the wakes like this but you won't be in a good position to do anything with it and likely there will be too much line tension making handle control difficult to manage. But you can run 22 and 28 off like this without too much trouble, shorten to 32 and it's obvious your doing it wrong.

    I've found it important to let the ski finish the turn, and be In a good stacked position on hook up, and "let" the load build as you approach CL. When I'm able to do this I hit CL with a lot of speed and edge change seems to happen automatically and it's much easier to keep the handle in tight. Setting you up for nice approach to the next ball.
    GloersenKillerZman
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 3,385 Mega Baller
    edited December 2018
    @Horton I win I win! - the elusive retracted panda.

    So what would your response be to: "if so how do you avoid augering into the wakes"
    Do you feel the skier is at additional risk of OTF crash skiing in a more efficient stance or a reduced risk of OTF crash due to reduced force on arms....
    WaterSkier12
  • HortonHorton Posts: 26,964 Administrator
    edited December 2018
    @BraceMaker you said
    in those 2 examples the first skier is more likely to eat [email protected]#$ than the second skier. The first example ahould have both more load AND the distance between the COM and COM target is essentially potential energy waiting to unload on you the minute something goes wrong in the most powerful of ways.


    There is nothing out of control or dangerous about that first skier. Nothing in that image looks like OTF. Is it cutting-edgeblazing awesome world-class 41 off awesome? No. That is pretty close to what most people that run 35 and 38 look like. The skier in that image is a little bit back but in no way out of control.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ MOB ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 3,385 Mega Baller
    Oh sorry I see it. Im not thinking either are dangerous, BOTH are great skiing.

    Im just pondering if there is any added risk of OTF in the second photo. To which I think no added risk.
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,877 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    Risky business but I am going to chime in a little bit, so why do we not focus on control, example is coming off the bouy with far too much angle or load, which results in things happening that you have no control over, which makes the pass difficul to manage.
    Do you need to be that wide or early ? what about taking slightly less angle and load and ski to a distance in front of the bouy that is going to enable you to keep control and make the next turn, would this make for more consistency, allowing you to perfect timing and rhythm.

    "Another Ball Bites The Dust”

  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 691 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited December 2018
    @Stevie Boy would you really say that what's holding you (or anyone) back on your hardest pass is being too wide and early?

    That being said there's a reason why most shortline skiers are running setups that cause the ski to turn more slowly than stock/longer line skiers. The speed, forces, and bank angles are higher as the rope gets shorter, so you don't want a ski that goes 90 on the back of the buoy on your opening pass, or you'll quickly be out of control as you shorten the rope.
    drewski32gsm_peter
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,877 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @AdamCord I probably didn't put across what was I my mind that well, what I was trying to put across was that if you go too hard and bite off more than you can chew, it becomes dangerous and out of control, the point you make in your second paragraph.
    Thankyou for putting me right.

    "Another Ball Bites The Dust”

    dvskier
  • DanoDano Posts: 113 Baller
    edited December 2018
    @Stevie Boy I think the goal is to apply your efforts at the appropriate time. (not "do less so it's more manageable) By doing so we can be more efficient and much stronger behind the boat where we need it most. Load here builds more and more and peaks at CL. I'm guessing here but the edge change may help manage all that load by giving you a move to direct all that energy and shoot the ski out onto a turning edge.

    Loading off the ball creates a situation in which you likely will not be strong enough to maintain that position all the way across CL. Meaning you'll be giving up position and direction. In this scenario you need to load immediately off the ball and then your actually loading less as you approach CL. If your loading less as you approach CL your losing position, and direction is slowly becoming more down course. I ski just like this most of the time. it's my biggest hold back and very difficult habit to change.

  • skisprayskispray Posts: 143 Baller
    @AdamCord so is the takeaway that you should be patience out of the buoy and just try to build all the way to the wakes? Does this change anything about the standard advice getting your handle to your hips out of the turn and keeping it there?
  • AdamCordAdamCord Posts: 691 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @skispray you should drive your hips forward to the handle through the turn, but not necessarily try to create ski angle. I think it was @drew who first told me to try and "leave the ski pointed down the lake" coming through the turn. While that's not what actually happens, that's the feeling you want to have as you start to accelerate to center, and the ski angle builds into the wakes.
    ZmanScottScottHortonOne_Ski
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 226 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    My two cents: Being concerned about having your COM a few degree forward or not; should not be in your top 5 things to work on when learning 32 and 35.

    I would suggest that being in a position of 2A (above) will result in many OTF and injuries. Yes, handle control really matters, most skier release way to early and you should hold on to the handle until you are transitioned from the end change to the turn. Handle control is one of the few things that I feel that I do well. It may be old school but running the course with two hands on the handle is an excellent way to learn handle control and resist the temptation to release early.

    My suggestion is that you need to keep front of the ski down in the turn and then strive to get as much angle as you can comfortable sustain. I.E don't have too much angle and get "stood up by the boat" or too little that you don't generate the speed or angle for the next turn. Then hold your position and then when you transition to the edge change do it immediately, don't pull, pull less, go flat, slightly on edge, then on edge, the rinse and repeat 5 more times. Your edge change should be aggressive almost a violent action from pulling edge to the other edge.

    If you just maintain a reasonable pulling position, hold it, and change edge without a significant dead zone you can run 32 with any COM position. Don't over think it.
    Bruce_ButterfieldjimskiGloersenCalisdad57
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 226 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    edited December 2018
    Example of starting release while transitioning into turn.
    HortonZman
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 6,014
    A 28off skier does not have near enough technique to try to emulate 2B. There are far better things to worry about, such as standing balanced on the ski and keeping the hips over the bindings not just behind the boat, but from the time you pull out to the time you go out the exit gates. Guess what happens when you have the hips centered and in line past the centerline and through the turn. Handle control suddenly improves. And vice versa. When your hips are centered into and through the turn, you'll find yourself chasing the handle far less. So many people concentrate on stack into centerline, then give it up after center, which forces the hands away from the body, the ski changes it's arc downcourse and then the release has to happen because your mind thinks your behind.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • RobRob Posts: 51 Baller
    Some people have touched on this a little but I think it's pretty important - what goes on leading into the buoy is just as important aswhat you doing coming out of it. If I'm not mistaken, I think Andy Mapple indicated in his slalom video of ages ago (2003?) that he thought the space from centerline to the buoy was actually the most important part of the course.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 26,964 Administrator
    @rob how do you think you make more space?

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ MOB ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

  • HortonHorton Posts: 26,964 Administrator
    edited December 2018
    @rob yep I think you are pretty right on. You are off topic for this specific thread but your information is good. Maybe the one thing that you overlook in your text is if you are not stacked and going as fast as possible into the first wake there is nothing you can do after the second wake will make more space.

    You make your space from the ball to the wakes not from the wakes the ball. After the second wake all you can do is maintain your space. All the technique you described above allows you to maintain the most possible space. Not create additional space.

    To put it differently you build all your speed before the wakes. Everything you do after the wake is about holding on to that speed so you can catch the boat.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ MOB ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

    Than_BoganZmanShark
  • andjulesandjules Posts: 789 Crazy Baller
    @Rob It was Rossi who wrote about not trying to ski the impossible line. Great article, especially as people were adjusting from PP to Zero Off, and dovetails nicely with other thinkers on the topic of load vs speed.
  • BraceMakerBraceMaker Posts: 3,385 Mega Baller
    @rob was it this video?

    vernonreeve
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,839 Mega Baller
    @BraceMaker Andy had a DVR out on Slalom technique where he talked about speed and creating space before the buoy. There is a ton of good stuff in there. One thing I remember was him saying there is no thing as too much speed. I kind have interpreted that to mean that there is no such thing as too much speed into the first wake. You definitely don't want to be adding speed after the centerline.

    Mark Shaffer
    lpskier
  • HortonHorton Posts: 26,964 Administrator
    @Chef23 I think the reality is you can not add the right kind of speed after the centerline. It is easy to make a lot of speed directly at the ball but that is not the speed you need.

    Support BallOfSpray by supporting the companies that support BallOfSpray

    Barts ★ Connelly ★  DBSkis ★ Goode ★ Hobe Lake ★ HO Syndicate 

    MasterCraft ★ Masterline ★ MOB ★ Performance Ski and Surf ★ Reflex ★ Radar ★ Stokes

  • RobRob Posts: 51 Baller
    @Horton yes I agree
    @andjules yes that's the article - haven't seen that in forever.
    @BraceMaker that might have been it I can't remember...
  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 2,444 Mega Baller
    So, independent of this discussion, on my last several sets, I’ve been working on moving from the “2A position” to the “2B position.” I’ve been doing this by a) incorporating @horton’s Suggestion of consciously straightening my back leg in particular in the edge change and then holding that position and then b) feeling the load of the ski from merge to the second wake on my front foot rather than my back. Although the 2A position with the ski in front feels safer and 2b feels like an OTF in the making, it is becoming more comfortable and I can feel the efficiency. I’ve been stuck with an average of between 2 and 3 @38 for like forever, so I’m taking the bull by the horns this winter and trying a big change that’s not just a new ski, new fin or new board shorts that look like they have a big score in them.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
    WaterSkier12Bruce_ButterfieldSharkjimbrake

Leave a Comment

BoldItalicStrikethroughOrdered listUnordered list
Emoji
Image
Align leftAlign centerAlign rightToggle HTML viewToggle full pageToggle lights
Drop image/file