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What Level Do You Need To Be At To Justify ZO And A New (ish) Boat?

ozskiozski Posts: 1,715
edited February 2014 in Boat Talk
Reading some interesting comments about what people need from a boat to progress through the loops. My take on it is that the majority of people who buy new can find lots of ways to justify the purchase but in reality a 5 or 10 year old boat will work for the majority of skiers. I'm no different to most people, new toys are great but I try to keep it real when it comes to skiing, I have a few sets a week behind a 200 with ZO and weekends we are doing the family stuff with the 2004 Stargazer / Zbox equipped LXi and there is a difference but the basics of good technique still come into play - its still skiing. I'm a -32 / -35 skier @34 so things might change if I get serious about the purple line one day. I tend to look at it like this, the money I've saved can be invested in coaching and training and I will be a better skier for it. @Goodeskier seems to have progressed despite ownership of a 2003 Nautique... There is plenty of focus on ZO but its not something the majority of us need to get ourselves into a twist about.
'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' 2021 MC As soon as it lands Ski - KD Platinum

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Comments

  • GOODESkierGOODESkier Posts: 1,107 Crazy Baller
    edited February 2014
    @ozski well said. Money is sometimes better spent on coaching, ski equipment, and access to tournament lakes. My PP SG ZBox tug does the trick for me.

    I should mention, I fell into my 03 Nautique. Neighbor had it and only put 36 hours on it in 6 years...... Mint condition for CHEAP money....... It was a BIG upgrade to the 1987 Dixie Super Skier 299 with PW (PW=Perfect Wife). Speed control saves more marriages............
    2003 Nautique 196 LE Star Gazer & ZBox - GOODE NANO OneXT 66.75" - Powershell 5 (LFF) - Tournament PB: 2 Balls @ 39.5' OFF (34.2 MPH) on 7/18/2015 at BIG DAWG BROHO!
  • ntxntx Posts: 838 Crazy Baller
    @ozski it depends on what you are looking for in your skiing. No reason that on a recreational level that you need any speed control. Believe it or not people have run 38 off with NO speed control. If you don't ski tournaments you can get by with any system. At that level you are skiing for fun. If you are a serious tournament skier it will help to train with what you will get there. Ski and have fun with whatever you have available to you.
    Intheday
  • ralral Posts: 1,812 Mega Baller
    @ntx, not that speed control makes running 38 easier...
    Rodrigo Andai
  • ntxntx Posts: 838 Crazy Baller
    @ral again depends on what you want. If it is all about easy some would argue to bring back perfect pass. Nothing in this sport is easy. That reminds me of a old joke. If it was easy we would call it wakeboarding. Hope I don't get band
    FatrollPurdueSkierBulldog
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,562 Mega Baller
    I would think ZO is for the tourney mind-set rather than based on level of skier. If not concerned about putting up tournament scores, PP is just fine.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
    east tx skier
  • Ed_ObermeierEd_Obermeier Posts: 1,345 Crazy Baller
    edited February 2014
    @ozski I'm at the same level as you, 32 & 35 looking at finally getting into 38 this season. I'm skiing mostly behind an '05 LXI, '95 PS 190, '07 PS 197, even a 1993 Malibu Tantrum (awesome little tow boat BTW). None of these boats is going to keep me from getting into or (in my dreams) running 38. You don't need a new boat to run shorter and shorter lines and buying a new boat isn't going to make THE difference.
    Ed Obermeier - owner, EZ-Slalom Course Systems
    www.ez-slalom.com
    Erik4c
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,420 Crazy Baller
    edited February 2014
    @ozski, you stated yourself "there is a difference". If you're getting .95's or very close, just ski. Then evaluate for yourself the real difference between the ZO boat and the others you use. The ZO boat won't make you better, nor will the others hold you back. It's what you get used to. If you ski tournaments you may desire the familiar feel of ZO.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
    6balls
  • WishWish Posts: 8,198 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited February 2014
    Practice= 97 SN 196 Classic PP. Tournament= ZO. The key= Once I found a setting (thank you @MS) I liked in ZO that actually made it feel easier then PP, my practice and tourny scores became the same. I train behind something that seems harder to manage, get to a tourny and it feels easier.....I like easier when it counts.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • GOODESkierGOODESkier Posts: 1,107 Crazy Baller
    @Wish yup, well said. If dialed in correctly, PP SG Zbox will be right there....... It is about finding your setting though. This year I am going to mess with the (+) settings more. I ran a few passes this winter on C3+ and think there is something there for me, especial in my glide before the gates. Now to figure out what setting it takes on my boat to make it feel and react the same. This is still my only complaint, my ABC123+ doesn't line up quite the same as the ZO................. My B's feel like other's C's......... May just be the difference in boats?
    2003 Nautique 196 LE Star Gazer & ZBox - GOODE NANO OneXT 66.75" - Powershell 5 (LFF) - Tournament PB: 2 Balls @ 39.5' OFF (34.2 MPH) on 7/18/2015 at BIG DAWG BROHO!
  • DeanoskiDeanoski Posts: 991 Crazy Baller
    I ski PP 6.5 and ZO and my buoy count is the same the trick to ZO is figuring out what setting you like then go ski.
    Wish
  • PBDPBD Posts: 190 Baller
    answering the original question I would suggest that take home pay in the neighborhood of at least $100K/year US should do it.
    MISkier
  • GOODESkierGOODESkier Posts: 1,107 Crazy Baller
    @OB I think a good experiment would be to........ use the X-Factor on the tournament and use a stargazer ZBox boat one round. I think it would be interesting at least.......
    2003 Nautique 196 LE Star Gazer & ZBox - GOODE NANO OneXT 66.75" - Powershell 5 (LFF) - Tournament PB: 2 Balls @ 39.5' OFF (34.2 MPH) on 7/18/2015 at BIG DAWG BROHO!
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,170 Mega Baller
    @OB can I turn the "Z" box off for my round ? ;)
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    @ozski -- upgrade when you feel like its worth your money. I don't know that they system will be make or break in terms of your skiing, even if you do tournaments.

    @GOODESkier -- hilarious!!! I had the PW (perfect wife) speed control for quite a few years. In fact, the PW complained when we got our first PP system because "anybody could do it". However, PW now realizes that it is easier to drive a great path when you don't have to use the PW speed control. I am just now moving to my first ZO boat (bring on the ProStar!). I was using SG ZBX and it was great. Like @Wish said, my home course was always harder than tournament lakes anyway, so I don't think the speed control matters as much as the conditions in my case.
    Jim Ross
  • Ed_ObermeierEd_Obermeier Posts: 1,345 Crazy Baller
    edited February 2014
    answering the original question I would suggest that take home pay in the neighborhood of at least $100K/year US should do it.
    With a mortgage and car payment too? $100K ain't even getting warm. Unless you consider a $400/month for 20 years boat payment a good idea...
    Ed Obermeier - owner, EZ-Slalom Course Systems
    www.ez-slalom.com
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    @Ed_Obermeier -- since I am putting a little money down and can finance under 4% with my dealer, payments will be less than that and less than 10 years. Cars are paid for and, unlike my boat, I don't really care about my cars! They can get old and run down and I don't really care. Not saying that the boats are cheap, they aren't, but with a little help from the bank I'm not too upset by the math (or maybe I've just rationalized it enough that I'm even fooling myself!).
    Jim Ross
    GroovyGrant
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,060 Mega Baller
    @ozski I am about the same level as you I run mid 35 off quite consistently but have only run 35 once. I train behind a 2002 Malibu with Stargazer and frankly I ski about the same behind a ZO boat as I do behind my boat. I don't think you need to have a ZO boat to improve. I think coaching and technique is more important.

    I would love to have a ZO boat but I can't justify the spend with my oldest a little more than 2 years from college.
    Mark Shaffer
  • Not_The_PugNot_The_Pug Posts: 648 Crazy Baller
    Here is the saying I use with my wife when she says I don't really need it:

    If I needed it, I would already have it, I just want it!

    Works for the new or Promo boat upgrade, I could definitely get by with any boat out there, but I like the new ZO boats.

    Used this same saying when I told her I wanted a new dirt bike and she said I had a perfectly good one in the garage. There isn't really a lot you can do to justify the new toys, so I just go with honesty and say I just want it because it is new or different than what I do have.
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,388 Mega Baller
    @Krlee - honesty. Pffft.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • ralral Posts: 1,812 Mega Baller
    @ntx, you got me wrong. You posted "Believe it or not people have run 38 off with NO speed control." , kind of implying that no speed control might make 38 off more difficult.
    Rodrigo Andai
  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,715
    @Goodeskier As you say I wonder how many skiers could actually pick the difference between a well setup zbox vs ZO, I think there are probably often larger variables in play. Wind, hull design, RPM, prop, water...the moon phase... We had a ZO equipped Mastercraft here before worlds simply because it was different and it was the boat that was pulling the worlds... It does not ski like the 200 or the LXi..
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' 2021 MC As soon as it lands Ski - KD Platinum

  • RichardDoaneRichardDoane Posts: 4,544 Mega Baller
    you can make the same dumb mistakes behind an older boat with PerfectPass, as a newer ZO machine, but it sure is nice to train behind what you'll have pull the tournament
    BallOfSpray Pacific Northwest Vice President of Event Management, aka "Zappy"
    TRST
  • Ed_JohnsonEd_Johnson Posts: 2,255
    Personally, I feel ZO has evolved a lot since it's first implementation...Since I have skied with Revision R over Q for a year now, I switched off the Plus once last month just to try it again..What a mistake, huge difference, no power...My afterburner was gone !!! Cannot even imagine skiing without the Plus and don't see anyway PP could compare with that.
    Special Thanks to Performance Ski and Surf and the Denali Adam's !!!
  • PurdueSkierPurdueSkier Posts: 199 Baller
    @Ed doesn't Z-box have plus settings now also? Has anyone tried them?
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,420 Crazy Baller
    @OB I think Kyle Jones has been on ZO for the past two seasons at least. (Converted '07 196) Did not upgrade to "R". Not trying to analyze anything, but his tournament scores have gone up.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • IlivetoskiIlivetoski Posts: 1,190 Crazy Baller
    We run PP on our 04 LXi and we always get +/- .00 or +/- .01 times. Nearly perfect times. If you get PP dialed in, speed is not the problem. For me the issue is the feel and strength of ZO. I skied B3 2 seasons ago and most of this season. Last tournament of this season switched to B2 (literally as I was putting my ski on) and ran back to back rounds of tournament PB's. I feel like ZO can help skiers a lot if they are in sync and know what is happening, if you try to ski it like you do PP your done.
    Ed_Obermeier
  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,715
    I've heard skiers claim they can pick the difference between the 6.0 and the 5.7 200 - both running ZO. Hmmm I went out behind the 6.0 today and my opener felt hot.. 16.96 - the rest of the set felt normal after I made a slight adjustment to me (my gate). Some days your on and it all feels slow, some days the other.
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' 2021 MC As soon as it lands Ski - KD Platinum

  • chrispennerchrispenner Posts: 14
    edited February 2014
    I love how much attention your getting on here Steve from the 15-39 off in 3 years. Awesome. Anyway back on topic. If z box is set up right (x factor cranked) it is difficult to tell. At least in my opinion. I mean look at Steve he ski's his PPSG zbox at home and skis really well. Then goes to tourney and slays it there too. Just buy a boat, get cruise and ski a ton. I guess you are always better off to train behind what you will ski behind in a tourney but whatever there is no replacement for time on water. Ask Steve. It's funny no one talked about how much Steve ski's or skied in order to accomplish the 15-39 in 3 years. Ummm correct me if I am wrong here Steve...But EVERY DAY 2x a day making a totally of 4-6 sets a day or more. Cheers!
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    I do think that in general the newer boats with the strong motors make it a little less important, particularly for the lighter skiers. I skied my 2005 PS197 with PP when I got it, then SG, then SG zbox and I felt that zbox was "close enough" for training purposes. To me all it really does is makes the boat a little stronger, which is the same thing I feel behind ZO. But I think any boat with fuel injection and 320+hp probably is good enough for most (with at least PP).
    Jim Ross
  • GOODESkierGOODESkier Posts: 1,107 Crazy Baller
    @chrispenner thanks man! Yeah, that part of the story hit the editing room floor. Since 2011 I have skied basically 2 sets a day and sometimes 3 from about May 1 - Nov 1. Maybe a few days off in there, but basically ALOT of skiing. Over 580 gallons of fuel in our own boat this past summer just on the course.

    I agree, it isn't as much about the speed control as it is access to a good ski spot, a new technology ski/binding, and ski with people WAY better than you as often as you can! Doesn't hurt to have a KILLER driver now and then like @chrispenner
    2003 Nautique 196 LE Star Gazer & ZBox - GOODE NANO OneXT 66.75" - Powershell 5 (LFF) - Tournament PB: 2 Balls @ 39.5' OFF (34.2 MPH) on 7/18/2015 at BIG DAWG BROHO!
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