Does moving your bindings foward necessarily make you ride farther forward on your ski?

IlivetoskiIlivetoski Posts: 1,181 Crazy Baller
I remember reading something saying that just because your bindings are forward on your ski, does not mean that you will necessarily ride farther forward on your ski or that you will have more of the ski in the water. Can anybody tell me if this is true? I have problems riding too far back on my ski and my bindings are all the way forward (do not have the measurement right now).
Thanks!!
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Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,168 Administrator
    moving bindings forward because you think you are back is a classic rookie mistake

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  • WishWish Posts: 7,716 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    +1 for @Horton and @OB
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  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,781 Mega Baller
    There's tuning and then there's creating a crutch for a bad habit... Bindings way forward because you ride too far back is a crutch.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 6,028
    @ilivetoski It's likely that you're back because your back leg is bent.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • gator1gator1 Posts: 591 Crazy Baller
    @Ilivetoski: It's likely that your back leg is bent too much because you're back too far. It's likely that you are back because your "lizard brain" (that part of your brain that subconsciously keeps you alive by overiding conscious decisions to do things that have harmed you in the past) is overiding the part of your brain that already knows you are too damn far back.

    A couple of tries on the front of the ski that result in headers into the wake or worse is all it takes for lizard boy to say "NYET! to that bullshet".

    How do these studs get on the front of the ski and survive the wake?

    I've found the key variable is where your shoulders are in relation to your spine during your pull and wake impact. Terrry Winters is squatted on the damn ski. Nate is at about 90 degree knee angle on both legs at the wake. TP is almost straight at pine tree. Straight back leg is clearly not a requirement for studliness. But, all of them have their shoulders behind their spine.

    If you round your shoulders forward during the pull, your center of pull is in front of your spine. Given a sudden impact (wake) all the load serves to lever your spine forward from the hips. Your center of gravity shifts suddenly forward, and OTF you go.

    If your shoulders are squared back behind your spine, the sudden load actually serves to lessen the strain on your lower back, straightening you up a bit at impact. Your CG shifts back a tad, the ski comes off edge and voila! you are changing edges right where you wanted to.

    More importantly, lizard brain is not bitch slapping conscious brain anymore. Instead of getting closer to wishing you had a gatormod every time you try to get your weight balanced on both feet, each wake you hit with your shoulders behind your spine is calming the lizard.

    And note none of this has anything to do with hips up or back. That'll come if you can quit forcing a drastic CG change at the wake. Your lizard brain runs them back now, because you need to be able to survive a half foot more CG change to the front.

    A MAJOR NOTE OF CAUTION: If you start out with a badass hole shot, and shoulders squared, but panic at the sudden ungodly acceleration, you may freak right before the wake and round your shoulders. Really bad move. So, start this slow. You'll be amazed at how samll of a bite you have to take to generate speed.

    So, that's a lot of advice probably worth less than you paid for it, and it was free. And, it contradicts a lot of what is emphasized by most people. But, its the only explanation I can find for the success of everybody from the squatters like TW to the pine trees like CP.
    Ghibli
  • HipsupHipsup Posts: 56 Baller
    My favourite subject!

    The bottom line is you need to be balanced with your weight over your feet. Trouble is there are many different ways of achieving this like @gator1 says. Keeping your back leg straight or your hips up or your front knee pushed forward are all still possible while having your weight too far back so they may not work for you either.

    What you need to do is find a way of moving your front hip over your front toe and this requires you to move your entire body mass forward - much like in snow skiing when moving your body mass forward results in you pushing your shins against the front of your boots.

    If you ski with a rear toe loop there is an easy way of finding out if you can stand on your ski properly. Whilst skiing take your back foot out and if you squirrel down the lake before taking a face plant you know you're doing it wrong. If you can stay balanced over your front leg and keep that position when you put your back foot back in, then you've got it!
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,320 Crazy Baller
    @gator mentioned "lizard brain". I think that's the part of you that makes you revert to the same place after a short time no matter how far you move bindings. For some of us anyway.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • JordanJordan Posts: 1,143 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    I used to go out the front a lot....I was a classic herk and jerk, stop and go skier...all strength, no technique.

    Once I learned to be stacked and to be patient enough to let the ski finish the turn before locking in for the pull, then everything started working. Best part was all of the out the front falls went away.
    wtrskior
  • gator1gator1 Posts: 591 Crazy Baller
    @leonL Yessir. Exactomundo. Ya. Da. Si. Oui.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,168 Administrator
    @Hipsup‌
    " Keeping your back leg straight or your hips up or your front knee pushed forward are all still possible while having your weight too far back so they may not work for you either."

    I do not think so. As and example. If your back leg is straight there is no way for you to go back as long as your front foot is on the ski.

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  • ski6jonesski6jones Posts: 940 Crazy Baller
    Flip a Bosu ball upside down and stand on the flat side like you would on your ski. You will need to get the weight distribution sorted out in order to do this. Great dry land practice tool. You can build some muscle memory for your ski stance in the comfort of your own home.
    Carl Addington, Lakes of Katy, Texas
    Texas6mmosley899
  • gator1gator1 Posts: 591 Crazy Baller
    @Horton: I do think so. Lock both knees, foot in front of foot like on a ski. Whichever foot is in front, tilt your hips so the corresponding front hip joint is closer to the ground than the hip joint hooked to the rear leg.

    I can move my CG almost 1.8' front to rear while keeping both knees locked. In fact, I can get almost all my weight off my front foot with both knees locked by tilting my hips.

    If your legs were joined to a single point at your crotch your theory would hold. You'd have a perfect triangle. They are not. There is almost 1.3' between the attachment points.

    I tried the back leg straight tip to get off my ass. Didn't work. Hip and IT band got sore as hell though. My lizard brain found a way to defeat that tip in order to keep me safe.
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 6,028
    You lost me when you talk of tilting one hip closer to the ground.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • DeanoskiDeanoski Posts: 800 Crazy Baller
    just bend your front ankle it's that simple!
    Texas6
  • gator1gator1 Posts: 591 Crazy Baller
    @shaneH: Imagine the hottest girl you know, walking away from you. As she walks, her hips tilt side to side. That sway is her pelvis tilting on the end of her spine. When her right foot hits and travels back the right side of her pelvis begins to lift as the left side begins to drop. Effectively shortening her right leg and lengthening her left as her butt sways to the right.

    Um, excuse me. I'll be in my bunk.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,347 Mega Baller
    Agreeing with most of the above: in my experience, bindings forward is the last thing to do if you are chronically back. Having a short ski in front of you will exaggerate every wrong instinct that is telling you to rock back. Bindings back may make you more comfortable to stand forward.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,189
    @gator1 - easy for me to picture that scenario as I have studied it many times.
    Daryn Dean - Lakes of Katy, TX
    ***Robbed out of Hundreds of Panda Worthy Posts***
  • ctsmithctsmith Posts: 281 Baller
    edited March 2014
    Keith, just start calling me Lizard Brain! And yes, my ribs still hurt.
  • BoneHeadBoneHead Posts: 6,028
    Why in the world would you want to do that with your hips, though?
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,168 Administrator
    edited March 2014
    @gator1‌ in theory maybe...

    I Lock both knees, foot in front of foot like on a ski. Whichever foot is in front, tilt your hips so the corresponding front hip joint is closer to the ground than the hip joint hooked to the rear leg. 

    But in my 45 years on planet earth I have never seen it. For all practical purposes straightening your back leg moves your center of mass forward.

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  • gator1gator1 Posts: 591 Crazy Baller
    @shaneH: I didn't WANT to. I was focused on keeping my back leg straight. Still had my shoulders rounded, so the only way to survive was to tilt my hips. Lizard brain took over and tilted my hips.

    @Horton: Maybe I'm the bad kind of 1%. "don't worry Mr. Gates, less than 1% have issues with a vascectomy". "Don't worry Mr. Gates, less than 1% have permanent numbness after wisdom teeth removal". "Gee, we can't understand how you ruptured your Achilles AND dislocated your peroneal tendon. We've never seen that, that's why we didn't check the peroneal when we fixed your Achilles, we can get you in for follow up surgery next month"

    "in 45 years on planet earth........". Come on up to Spokane and I'll show you my apparently unique, unfortunate ability to negate a skiing tip. And it must run in the family, because the straight leg tip hasn't worked for any of us.




  • gator1gator1 Posts: 591 Crazy Baller
    And, besides, I want to look like Nate, not a stork.
    DmaxJC_ski
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 1,915 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited March 2014
    I have to say, I was advised to move my binding forward, skied Ok, but still felt something was missing, Threw my Donjoy Armour in the bin (back leg) and put a neoprene with support on, after a few sets, I was then advised to move the binding backwards, Yeah ski feels more free, finishes the turn really well and that missing thing, wasn't missing, anymore, I guess the Donjoy was making me stand on the ski in a different way and interfering with my skiing.
    Any change in stance, has to have a greater impact than binding placement surely ?
    To clarify, moving the binding forward was probably an atempt to overcome what was probably a stance issue, but changed the ski,s characteristics, not necessary for the better.

    "Getting Harder/Getting Positive”

  • WBLskierWBLskier Posts: 452 Baller
    I am on a 66 strada and I ski primarily at 34mph into 35 off. I had my front strada binding (w/ rtp) set a little forward of stock and liked how the ski felt. After reading these comments I tried moving it to stock. I skied it for a couple months including teh better part of a week at Cory Pickos that way. Cory told me I was on the back of my ski and suggested I move it forward to where it was. Immediately felt better again. I could definitely have form issues that are causing me to be on the back of the ski, but I ski better with it slightly forward of stock. I feel like if i was doing something totally wrong form-wise they would have had me work on that rather than move the bindings, but who knows I guess. Has anyone else had this experience with bindings a bit forward and skiing better?

  • ozskiozski Posts: 1,648
    I went forward with the boots on the Quest and felt that the ski works better for me. My previous ski I was all the way back..
    'Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try Again. Fail again. Fail better.'' Boat 2005 Nautique 196 6L ZO - Ski - KD Platinum

  • ZmanZman Posts: 1,437 Crazy Baller
    I'll bet it's all perfectly clear now to the OP, @Ilivetoski.....
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,168 Administrator
    edited March 2014
    @WBLskier‌ the question is forword of what? The stock setting is a starting point but as soon as you add your own bindings your own height and weight everyone will need something a little different. You have to also remember that some skis are much more sensitive than others.

    back to the subject of this thread.... moving your bindings forward is not the solution for being way back on the ski.

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  • IlivetoskiIlivetoski Posts: 1,181 Crazy Baller
    @rico I just bought a Vapor and I think I am going to put it at factory and keep it that starting the season out. I feel like starting out factory instead of forward will be best. Strada was 66 Vapor is also 66. Not sure on numbers on the Vapor, will get them as soon as I get something to measure it with. I have been told by a few coaches that I am always on the tail, but when I watch video, the problem occurs coming into the turn, through the turn, then I tend to get the tip down coming into the wake. On my onside I tend to keep the ski down and in the water, but I would say overall coming into my turn on my offside and through my offside turn is the issue (I am LFF so 2,4 is my offside).
  • SkiJaySkiJay Posts: 2,314 Mega Baller
    You can't compensate for any significant technique flaw with any kind of binding or fin change, and you really don't want to support bad habits anyway. If you are finding yourself on the tail of the ski, the ski isn't going to work no matter what you change. Binding and fin changes are for fine tuning how the ski responds to sound consistent technique.
    www.FinWhispering.com ... Your ski should be your dance partner, not a wrestling opponent
    JJVDMZNHortonricoBoneHead
  • DustyDusty Posts: 315 Baller
    Not being very flexible, I work on thinking about ankle bend, and standing such that my COM (about 2" behind the navel) is centered up over the spot midway between the balls of my feet- or thereabouts...

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