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So how do we ski with ZO?

HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
edited May 2009 in Technique & Theory
<p class="MsoNormal">
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">I had thought that if we (I) beat the drum on speed control enough there might be change. Sadly I feel like no one is listening. So I guess the next thing to do is figure out how to survive it.</font>
</p>
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font><font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">Has anyone really thought about what the new key to slalom is? I know that if I ski ZO the same way I ski PP, I get pulled down course as soon as I try to scramble. </font>
<p class="MsoNormal">
<font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">Please do not tell me to not scramble…. That is how I ski. When I am late, I control the handle more, pull long and stomp on my front foot.</font>
</p>

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Comments

  • DirtDirt Posts: 1,677 Open or Level 9 Skier
    <p>
    Baz is huge!!
    </p>
    I learned everything I know not to do from Horton
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,977 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    John, have you skied the new ZO? Maybe there is now a setting you like. Some things did change.
    </p>
    <p>
    Or you need a ZO specific ski or fin setting.
    </p>
    <p>
    Physical changes (like speed profiles) can sometimes be offset by other physical responses (like ski setups). Let us know what works for you. Or you might have to try one of my funky skis.
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    <p>
    Dave,
    </p>
    <p>
    What?
    </p>

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  • skiron07skiron07 Posts: 83 Baller
    <p>
    I agree completely with JH-
    </p>
    <p>
    last year I struggled with dealing with ZO; this year seems to be no better...
    </p>
    <p>
    give me back PP
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
  • skiepskiep Posts: 345 Crazy Baller
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
      John: Driving two tournaments in Florida - most skiers are using A123 or C123 only dummies like me are using B because i don't know due to stargazer in practice boat. They seem to have it figured out. Keith Albritton
    </p>
  • adamadam Posts: 48 Baller
    <p>
    This is my first year training behind ZO so I can't say too much about the Q version improvements over last year.  I had a few opportunities to practice behind it last year.  Last year it seemed like I was either on and made the pass or one slight mistake in the turn where I didn't get angle at the finish, I was done.  One day I'd go out and run 7 of 7 35's in one set.  Another day, a week or two later, I am 0 for 10 attempts at 35 in two sets.  I even tried going back to 32off to unsuccessfully smooth it out.  It just seems like angle at the finish is key or maybe what you do to get angle is key.  If I try to muscle it out and get angle that way, the boat gets pissed and runs like a scalded dog and don't let up even when I'm past the wake.  I might make the next buoy, but the boat was gassing so much that not only do I have too much speed at the next buoy, I also have extra slack because the boat slowed down too much.  I don't know how many good drivers would gas someone that long and back off that dramatically right afterward.  The Q version is only slightly tamed IMO.  It still gasses too long and exhibits similar characteristics.  Anyone who has the size and/or strenght to pull the boat down after a bad turn will have a bad day.  If I get angle at the finish of the turn, I can do whatever I want and still be OK at the next buoy.  I could pull as hard as I want at that point or just sit there and let the boat do the work.  It doesn't matter.  Part of the problem is that the driver can have an impact on whether the skier is able to finish the turn and establish angle before the pull comes on, then ZO will destroy the skier without angle.  Maybe one approach to recovering from a bad turn or any turn that results with no angle is to do what you can do to get the angle with out pulling too hard and/or limit how much you pull after the wake.  If you pull hard to make up the time, make sure you get off the pull earlier knowing that the boat will back off when you do.  Hopefully you will have the speed you need to get wide enough to round the buoy. 
    </p>
    <p>
    I have been all over the place trying the difference settings.  I think C3 has felt the best so far, but sometimes it feels like I can't get to the buoys.  B anything just has never felt that good or maybe those were just bad days.  A2 and A3 are OK sometimes, but I think they have the potential for giving me more slack since they gas comes on later.
    </p>
    <p>
     Just my .02 FWIW.
    </p>
    <p>
    Adam
    </p>
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,209
    <p>
    Steve Binkley skied in our tournament last weekend. I've never seen a guy take a hit like he can. He ran the latest, ugliest, most incredible 38 I've ever seen behind the Nautique on C2 I think. So it can be done.  You guys would have laughed when you saw it. In fact, the boat judge was laughing when he called in the score.  He got pulled forward out of two, skied straight to 3, started his edge change on top of 3, was over halfway downcourse to the plane of 4 before he hooked up, skied straight to 4, started his edge change on top of 4, took a hit that would have bent me in two, took a hit at 5 that was crazy bad, skied straight at 6, turned 6 and seriously was 50ft downcourse from 6 when he hooked up and took this insane hit, and recovered and made it out the gates.  And he's gotta be 50 years old. If he can scrap a pass like that, there's no reason those of us 15 years younger can't. It wasn't just that one pass. He scrapped through every 38 like that in all three rounds.
    </p>
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • SMSM Posts: 529 Crazy Baller
    Since Zero Off seems to be here to stay, why don't we get the ski manufacturers to adapt the skis we use. It's easy, all we have to do is impregnate a chip and a structural flex control module into all new skis and then program them to flex differently for the ABC-123 modes. The whole thing could be solar powered. Then maybe we can add WIFI to the ski so it can communicate directly to a satellite which can beam information back to the boat to keep the ZO and ski in sync. No user input necessary. Simple Simon.
    Time spent on the water is time well spent.
  • thagerthager Posts: 5,184 Mega Baller
    Some of the pros moved to longer skis to help compensate for the hits.
    Stir vigorously then leave!
  • StevenSteven Posts: 307 Baller
    So, not only do we have to buy new boats, but new ski's too?
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    I think I am going back to my PP Classic habit of skiing fast times all the time. Can't hurt can it?

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  • EFEF Posts: 63
    <p>
    I'm going to be new to tournaments this year, so my question is should I spend the money to upgrade to SG, or just stick with my PP Classic and switch?
    </p>
    <p>
     Also I like ++ 15, is that the closesest way to mimic the ZO?
    </p>
    <p>
    Thank you!
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    I do not really think it is the same thing. If this is your first year of tournaments.... are you running short rope? If not just go ski and have fun

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  • JohnNJohnN Posts: 129 Baller
    <p>
    I wish you well on your quest, John!  I too like to scramble, and it didn't pay off in my tourney results last year (except for the one round behind PP).  My thoughts for this year are 1) be disciplined as possible and stay invisible to the boat, and when that fails 2) in scramble mode aim to maintain as much speed as possible after the ball by driving my body, hips, everything forward when stuffing the ski around the ball.  I'm thinking that maintaining the speed will give the boat time to catch up and not get caught in the cycle of powering late.  Unfortunately the only time I'll get to try my theory is in tournaments...
    </p>
    <p>
    It's interesting that you're getting pulled down course when you scramble.  Why is that?  Too much power, too little power, or too late application of the power?  Maybe the new breed of wide skis will help to lessen the boat's reactions?
    </p>
    <p>
     EF - ++ 15 probably won't feel like ZO :-).  Some say - and 15 I think.  In my limited experience with SG, it's cool, but doesn't resemble ZO and probably won't help tourneys.  PP classic is more fun to ski behind IMO.
    </p>
    <p>
     John
    </p>
  • elrelr Posts: 329 Mega Baller
    edited May 2009
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">So what is so tough . . .</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">There are only:</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">2 different CC 196’s (5.7L & 6.0L)</font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">2 different Bu LXi’s (5.7L & 6.2L)</font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">3 different MC PS’s (190 6.0L, 197 5.7L & 6.0L)</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">So 7 different boats you might draw for your tournament ride.</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">Then there are:</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">9 different ZO settings for each boat (ignoring the fact that both versions of PP are still approved for the Bu’s.)</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">That’s only 56 boat/speed control combinations (ignoring PP).</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">And if you happen to set a record – it’s not compliant with Rule 8.05 – "All speeds are “speeds over the bottom”; compensate in all cases where a current exists. The boat path in all events is intended to be a straight line, run at a constant speed. Variation in speed during any pass may not exceed ± .8 kph (.5 mph) . . ." <span> </span></font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"><span></span></font>
    </p>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"><span></span>The programming and logic of both ZO and PP do not “intend” to maintain constant speed but rather to achieve a perfect average speed or time through the course regardless of speed swing. <span> </span>ZO the boat comes into the course .7 MPH hot and you are more than likely to pull the boat down more than .5 MPH somewhere in the course.</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">The speed control programming logic is market driven with ZO and PP attempting to give the skiers a “pull” they like – but not all skiers like the same pull.</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">What happens if AWSA mandates (e.g. acts like the USGA when it sets up US Open golf courses) that speed swings be limited to the greatest extent technically possible (e.g. tightens the speed swing rule)? </font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">The bad – near term nobody will like the “pull” and scores will go down for a while.</font>
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"></font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">The good – 1) records will be rule compliant, 2) smaller speed swings will make the “pull” seem more consistent boat to boat (e.g. a smaller variation in “pulls” boat to boat, and year to year), 3) scores will eventually surpass current levels because of the more consistent pull.</font>
    </p>
    Ed Rink - LSF Texas
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3"><span style="color: black"><font color="#008000"><em>“speed control programming logic is market driven”</em></font> if that was true we would not be so pissed. </span><span style="color: black">All I want to do is practice behind the boats I have access to and then go to a tournament and not be 3 balls off what I can do. I took a ZO ride the other day and was so mad that I just had to get in the boat.</span></font>

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  • thagerthager Posts: 5,184 Mega Baller
    Wish I was down only three bouys! I lost a pass and a half in 08. Skied 7 tournaments last year. Only doing one this year if MS has it. ZO is better this year but still kickin my butt!
    Stir vigorously then leave!
  • elrelr Posts: 329 Mega Baller
    <p>
    So what is speed control programming logic driven by?  Certainly not the rule, as it is currently not rule compliant for slalom. 
    </p>
    <p>
    Scores are down because the current ZO pull is different than what it has been before, and that frustrates people.  But tighter speed swing tolerances are, I believe, more technically attainable then ever before.  The tighter the speed swing tolerances, the more consistent the pull boat to boat and year to year -- so you'll be able to practice more competently than with the 56 different non-compliant pulls now available only on new DBW boats .  Scores will go down initially but as more people practice with a tighter tolerance "tournament pull" they will go back up. 
    </p>
    Ed Rink - LSF Texas
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    I am for the same pull for everyone and for the letter of the rule but if everyone has to get a new boat to play then I just do not see it.

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  • ktm300ktm300 Posts: 430 Solid Baller
    Andy Mapple said it was great.  That settles it right. 
  • scokescoke Posts: 710 Crazy Baller
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    I love this thread. funny.
    </p>
    <p>
    where is my canary?
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    <p>
    ktm300
    </p>
    <p>
    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">As totally pissed as I am, I do not think it is Andy's or even ZO's fault. In fact I don't know who I want to shoot. I guess the lawyers that pushed PP out are to blame. Andy has done so much for the sport that I am unwilling to throw rocks at him. </span>
    </p>
    <span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'"></span><span style="font-size: 10.5pt; color: #062971; font-family: 'Trebuchet MS'">If ZO and PP were competing for market share, both products would get better and the skiers would benefit. ZO has monopoly and that is why we are screwed. </span>
    <p>
     
    </p>

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  • boarditupboarditup Posts: 585 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    The ZO debate affects only the upper performance echelon of the sport.  Those of us still struggling at longer line lengths do not notice the pull (at least me).  While the very competitive tournament community has a real problem with the shift in technology and programming, most of the rest of us cannot tell the difference.  The tournament slalom boat market is very small, and I would guess that most of the boats are NOT sold to the people in the ZO debate.  Of the 6 most recent ski boats sold that I am aware of, only one was sold to a person that has ever competed in a Regionals or Nationals (well, three were sold to show skiers who have their own nationals).  The promo boats are sold to upper echelon tournament skiers, but I would guess that only 50% or so go to them.  The rest are picked up by more recreational skiers.
    </p>
    <p>
    The rules that call for a .5 max variation have never been complied with.  I don't think that any boat can satisify that requirement with a big skier behind the boat.  Water, being a fluid media, just does not allow for that kind to tolerance.  As a sport, we have painted ourselves into a corner trying to be "fair" to all skiers.  Until we have an electrically driven rail system, there are going to be difference and tolerances.  We cannot get away from it.  Does it really make that much of an impact?  I argue not.  Yes, it is frustrating to have your performace impacted by variations and tolerances.  In the world of snow skiing and snowboarding, the time of the day you have your run can have a profound impact on your score.  Additionally, the course is never set up the same way every time.  It is always different - that is accepted and the skiers and boarders adapt.
    </p>
    <p>
    There has been several game changing innovations in skiing:  ropes, handles, adjustible fins, wings, plate bindings, hard shells, liners, CNC props, fuel injection, tracking fins, metric system, etc.  It seems to me that the previous innovations had one major difference from ZO - the cost and pace of implemtation.  Yes, it is not the preferred way to implement the changes.  However, if anyone was invested in a company with the patent protection and they failed to maximize it, you would scream as a shareholder to replace the management for a team that would increase the payback on your investment.  Ideal for the sport and your performance?  No.
    </p>
    <p>
    Our sport is expensive.  It is also very fussy with lots of picky rules that are the souce of endless arguements.  It reminds me of the young boys on the baseball diamond arguing - until the ball gets taken home in a huff.
    </p>
    <p>
    The real question is how to we leverage this into a positive?  ZO is a lot easier to use and to drive.  ZO is also a better pull for wakeboarders.  Maybe our wives will like driving the boat more with easier speed control.
    </p>
    Karl DeLooff - Powered by the wind
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    <p>
    Now I understand
    </p>
    <p>
    <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLxqsZHgAmk">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLxqsZHgAmk</a>
    </p>

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  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,209
    I gotta disagree. I feel the differences in PP and ZO even at 22 and 28.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • ktm300ktm300 Posts: 430 Solid Baller
    Skiing is so much fun.  I am not going to let these %^*& ruin it for me.  I am looking for a used ACCUSKI if anybody has one.  I am going to ski with what I want, how I want and where I want.  If you go to even one tournament pulled with ZO, you may as well stop complaining because you have given in.  They win.  If we make it hurt in the pocketbook, we will get what we want.  Otherwise, just sell your 2006 boat for scrap and go write a check to the boat companies for a new one.  That's what they are banking on.  So many have said that we just have to adapt.  No, we don't.  We are the customers.
  • ski6jonesski6jones Posts: 1,123 Mega Baller
    edited June 2009
    <p>
    What ktm300 said.
    </p>
    <p>
    I was just starting to ski tournaments to support my local club and some clubs in my area. Tournaments are not WHY I ski.
    </p>
    <p>
    I now have to learn about the new speed control WHILE skiing tournaments? NOT!
    </p>
    <p>
    Try this one. Here's your new ski, but you can only use it in tournaments. In practice you can use this other one.
    </p>
    <p>
    How many of you would accept a situation like that in tournaments?
    </p>
    Carl Addington, Lakes of Katy, Texas
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">I think it would be fun if we all had to exchange skis at the starting dock. I would be a different sport but fun.</font>
    </p>

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  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,977 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    Is this a backhanded way to try my ski?
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,412 Administrator
    Yep

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