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Looking for a little fin advice

Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,399 Mega Baller
edited June 2009 in Skis Fins Bindings
<p>
I so rarely do fin adjustments that I always find myself a little confused dialing in a new ski.
</p>
<p>
I'm just getting going on my Fischer #01 Yellow, and I think I've got the fin "pretty close" now.  I love my off-side turns, and the ski seems strong and predictable between the wakes; not too much trouble getting wide.
</p>
<p>
One problem remains, which is that I am fairly regularly getting a bit of a "stall" on my on-side (heal-side) turn.  The feeling is that, at the apex when I expect the ski to begin to carve into the turn, it instead briefly runs straight.  This doesn't happen every time -- it's especially pronounced if I'm running a little narrow.  But naturally I want to do what I can to the ski to compensate for my bad technique! :)
</p>
<p>
In case it matters, I am a 34 mph skier, and the lines where I'm noticing this the most are -32 and -35.  (I haven't attempted -38 yet this season -- it's still sorta early season here in New England, and I'm coming off a back injury last year so taking it slow.)
</p>
<p>
Any advice appreciated!!
</p>
Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan

Comments

  • Jim NeelyJim Neely Posts: 291 Baller
    <font face="arial,helvetica,sans-serif"><font size="2">If the ski is turning well on the off-side but hesitating on the on-side then raise the back of the fin. This will essentially add tip and reduce surface area. <span style="font-size: 12pt"><font color="#000000"><font size="2">Less fin surface area speeds</font> <font size="2">up the turn on the on-side</font></font></span></font></font>
    68" Vapor
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,399 Mega Baller
    <p>
    Thanks!  Naturally I have more questions.
    </p>
    <p>
    Do I want to maintain depth?  If I literally just raised the back of the fin, then I'd lose depth, and therefore (I think!) I'd also lose some of the tracking and ease of getting wide?
    </p>
    <p>
    But if I maintain depth AND increase tip, then surely I've <em>increased</em> the surface area of the fin, which seems to be the opposite of what you're suggesting.
    </p>
    <p>
    So I *think* what I'm understanding from your post is that I want to end up with more length but less depth?  Can I count on the increased length to help with tracking/width?
    </p>
    <p>
    Somewhat aside: In a previous adjustment (last year, before I hurt my back), I took out some tip relative to factory, so it's easy to believe I went too far.  I'm just trying to understand how depth interacts with this to make sure I'm trying something that has a reasonable chance to work!
    </p>
    <p>
    Sorry if my questions make no sense.  I'm a fin adjustment n00b. :)  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbie">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newbie</a>
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,546 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    What are your current fin settings? Where is your front binding measurement set at? I ride the same ski at the same speed. I have tried dozens of different fin setting and ultimately came back to the stock settings. When I had the symptom you describe, I moved the bindings forward one half hole (you can do that with RS-1 bindings), problem solved.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,399 Mega Baller
    edited June 2009
    <p>
    Interesting!  My first set on the ski was with the bindings centered on the holes, but then I actually measured it up and the factory recomended setting turns out to be one back from there.  So currently I am one hole back, and (if I've measured correctly!) at the factory boot placement.
    </p>
    <p>
    I don't have RS-1's, although I'm pretty interested in trying those out at some point.  I could certainly try moving the binding forward one hole, back to being centered on the holes.
    </p>
    <p>
    EDIT:  I didn't answer your question.  I don't have all the latest fin measurements in front of me; those are at home.  Pretty sure I started at factory (except accidentally the boot placement), and I found those setting tracked "too well" for me -- i.e. hard to turn the ski on both sides.
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,546 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    Chet Raley recommends these settings:
    </p>
    <p>
    Tail: .800 (stem)
    </p>
    <p>
    Length: 6.898 (tips)
    </p>
    <p>
    Depth: 2.454
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    <p>
    I tried them and initially liked them. However, I spent the Winter trying to change my style and went back to the stock settings. I may try these again now that I'm skiing a lot.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • SMSM Posts: 529 Crazy Baller
    I agree with Jim. Take depth away 3 thou at a time. keep the length the same and see how it goes.
    Time spent on the water is time well spent.
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,407 Crazy Baller
    There is a great old thread on fin settings for the Fish here on BoS.  It is titled "Fischer Info", and I found it on page 15 of the All Discussion topics.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,399 Mega Baller
    <p>
    Thanks, all.  I may have compounded a few factors to cause my on-side issues:  Compared to the Raley settings I am currently deeper, shorter, and closer to tail!  Possibly all 3 of those are bad for on-side finish!  I think I'll try jumping to those settings and then perhaps do some minor tuning from there.
    </p>
    <p>
    Then I'll come back when I get confused again...
    </p>
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,399 Mega Baller
    As a check that I'm not measuring in a goofy way: .800 DFT is almost all the way to the front of the fin box.  Does that seem about right?
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,399 Mega Baller
    Thanks again, folks.  The Raley Settings seem to have completely eliminated my on-side problem, and in my first set on them I ran -35 for the first time this year.  (Not that big a deal; I've run it many times, but still a good sign.)  I don't really like playing around with this stuff too much, so I'll probably do a bunch of sets at this setting before I even consider further tuning.  And hopefully I'll just leave them here and get back to trying to ski better!
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,407 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    I have my own issues with my offside turn.  What fin adjustment will prevent over-turning, (stalling) on the offside without changing much else?  I don't notice any problems through 35, but almost always I stall at 2 ball at 38, sometimes to the point that my Reflex releases from the front while my rear stays in, leaving a nasty gash on my rear shin.  The few times I don't stall, I usualy get to 4.  Never seen 5.
    </p>
    <p>
    Fischer Yellow 68"-  6.927, 2.530, .690
    </p>
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,836 Infinite Pandas
    <p>
    Try a soft Horton fin or an old HO Pacman fin! Fin design is at least as important as the setting.
    </p>
    <p>
     Marco, Reflex using trick skiers all use a soccer shin guard. This protects the shins. Maybe that nasty spray rash will not hurt so much either.
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,407 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    My understanding is a carbon fin is thicker, and won't fit a Fish which has a narrower fin, and I am hesitant to grind out the slot.  (I know you would do it in a heartbeat).
    </p>
    <p>
    I did finish last year wearing a rash guard to help protect my rear leg.  A shin guard would be better, but fixing my 2 ball would be best! 
    </p>
  • RogerRoger Posts: 1,546 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    Marco, I highly recommend widening the slot. Get the new fin first, either a Carbon Fin if you can find one, or a stock pre-9800 Goode Fin. Then take sandpaper folded over and work it back and forth in the slot to widen. Every few minutes, check your progress with the new fin. This method is very safe and the one I used with my Fish. You can then use the stock (pre-9800) fin block (the hole pattern matches the Fish) from the Goode or you can have your Fish block milled .012" to accomidate the thicker fin. The easiest way is to just get the Goode fin and fin block. I chose to have the machine work done on mine and I'm very happy with it, but I first used the Goode fin block and fin from my 9400 Goode and it worked fine. Currently I have the Carbon 106 installed.
    </p>
    <p>
    The problem with the stock fin is it's so thin that it bends/flexes during the turn and then at the finish of the turn, it snaps back causing the tip of the ski to rise (at least that's the theory around here). The tip of my ski does seem to stay down better with the thicker fins.
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
    Roger B. Clark - Okeeheelee skier. Senior driver, Senior Judge
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 3,836 Infinite Pandas
    edited June 2009
    <p>
    Horton did us all a great disservice when he decided to quit losing money making us Carbonfins.
    </p>
    <p>
    The Carbonfin on Kirk's Goode is quite thin. I had to shim up the fin block to make it fit. I don't know the numbers for the fin - contact Horton to see if he has anything left or get numbers to advertise for a used one. Kirk's ski really improved with the Carbonfin.
    </p>
    <p>
    If you can find a backup Fisher fin you can play around grinding the fin. Maybe there is a stiffer Fisher fin. Or maybe there is another aftermarket fin. Or you can sand down a thicker fin.
    </p>
    <p>
    Roger's advice is sound but it is tougher to get back to stock. Shimming Kirk's fin is a pain but it works. Skis are not destroyed by modifications.
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric
    </p>
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,407 Crazy Baller
    <p>
    Roger- My problem is more about burying the tip on my offside than tip rise.  When I first got the ski, I was getting tip rise on my onside, but going to the settings I mentioned above seemed to solve that problem.  I'm a little nervous about making irreversible modifications to a ski that can't even be replaced now.
    </p>
    <p>
    Eric-I like the idea of sanding down a thicker fin, so i don't have to make ski modifications that I can't reverse.  I just wonder if sanding it down enough to fit will make it as flexible as the stock fin.  I haven't heard of stiffer Fischer fin.  Someone, Jodi I think, explained to me the flex of the stock fin is critical to the performance of the Fish.
    </p>
    <p>
    Maybe I just ought to work on my technique so I am not pressuring the tip so late in the turn.  Maybe the answer is more forward pressure earlier, not later.  I was just hoping there was a magic fin adjustment I could make that would fix my offside and help get me through 38.  I guess if it was easy, they would call it wakeboarding.<img src="/vanillaforum/js/tinymce/jscripts/tiny_mce/plugins/emotions/images/smiley-cool.gif" border="0" alt="Cool" title="Cool" />
    </p>
  • robertoroberto Posts: 85 Baller
    <p>
    Marco
    </p>
    <p>
    Not running your line length, but, i had the same issue on an SS in 08. The shorter I went the worse it got. Guess you are RFF. I posted under 'tip stall' in January for some ideas.  BOS collegues came up with some good pointers. Trawl through discussions/Technique theory/ Tip stall. Best of luck, but with the greatest of respect I think you know the problem, it's a movement you are not making correctly. Possibly pre-turn, not using your core and climbing over the front? Patience my ass, I'm gonna stamp on the front and get it turned!!
    </p>
    <p>
    Regards
    </p>
    <p>
    Roberto 
    </p>
    <p>
       
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,407 Crazy Baller
    Roberto-  Thanks.  I'll look up the Tip Stall thread.  And I know you are right about technique.  I am doing (or not doing) something, more than likely starting at the edge change, that doesn't catch up to me until the shorter lengths.  I should try to work through this at 28 and 32, not wait until 35-38.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 27,451 Administrator
    <p>
    Carbon Fins? I have no idea what any of you are talking about.
    </p>
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000"> </font>
    <p class="MsoNormal">
    <font face="Times New Roman" size="3" color="#000000">I have been promising to get out a few fins for months and just can not get to it. I have maybe Five 106 fins that I can ship. Besides the 1 or 2 of you that are mad for not getting to it yet<span>  </span>. . . let me know. Maybe next week.</font>
    </p>
    <p>
     
    </p>

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  • StevenSteven Posts: 307 Baller
    <p>
    I love my 106!!! At the finish of the turn it feels like a rubberband stretching and then all of the sudden "BOING" and you off to the other side!  :)     You need to make more for those poor individuals that don't have 1
    </p>
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