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tips for a tight line

dislanddisland Posts: 1,356 Mega Baller
Getting a little slack at 35 off. Any tips to help on this?

Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
danspenceSkiJay

Comments

  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,356 Mega Baller
    Video courtesy of wakeye with an iPhone 4S and the wakeye app
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • dtmdtm Posts: 44 Baller
    Try to keep your handle parallel to the water as you come up out of your pullout and your 1,3,5 pulls. That will help keep your back shoulder maintaining direction, and keep the line tighter.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,548 Mega Baller
    That's really not bad slack at all for -35, but I've been working on something recently that might be helpful -- if I can put it into words!

    One way to think about it is hold the handle low and tight to the body on the ride out to the buoy. This forces a very significant amount of core usage, so if you're not feeling sore in your front/side you may not be doing it yet.

    Then you ski away from the handle only at the last moment when you absolutely must in order to go around the buoy.

    This seems to have a lot of benefits at -35 and shorter, but one of the biggest is reducing slack because you're "on" the line as long as possible. Another thing it seems to do is let you add (or at least "keep") a little width long after you've left the pull zone.

    I think this is closely related to the Reverse C -- or maybe is the exact same thing. But thinking about it this ways seems to be something simple enough that I can (sometimes!) actually do it.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
    MarcoA_BSkoot1123
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    @Than_Bogan I agree, but keeping the handle requires the right things to happen before that for me. For example, if I turn in for my gate with too much load, no amount of wanting to keep the handle close to my body after the midline matters -- the boat will unload me up the course and the handle will get away from my core. However, if I point my ski across course and don't create excessive load, then I can maintain my position and handle all the way out. In my simple mind, I see this as carrying my speed for longer in the correct direction (outbound) instead of getting unloaded and carrying speed up the course at the ball. I used to tell myself to "stay away from the buoy", which is just what I think you are achieving. The travel of the boat will bring you to the buoy without you turning and aiming at it. Maintain your handle, stay outbound, let the boat bring you to the buoy. Short release of handle, turn ski, repeat!
    Jim Ross
    MarcoThan_BoganSkoot1123jmvana1
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    BTW, @disland, that pass looked pretty darned nice!
    Jim Ross
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,356 Mega Baller
    @razorskier1 Thats makes a lot of sense. By the way the skier is my son.

    Thanks
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • MarcoMarco Posts: 1,416 Crazy Baller
    That's really nice skiing. Is that 36?

    Ditto what @Razorskier1 said. Keep the speed steady through the course, and the load reasonable and in the right place, and it will be easier to take the handle out with you, enabling you to do what @Than_Bogan is suggesting.
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    @disland -- the whole thing is really important to my own skiing. I am capable of generating tons of load, and the result is never good!!! It may sound funny, but I pretty much tell myself to do as little as possible once I turn the ski -- like literally next to nothing, just maintain my tall position, don't lean, and let the boat do the work. When I do it right, the passes at shortline feel wider, slower and easier with less slack line (because I do a better job of keeping the handle and going outbound). Now, my "do nothing" obviously has some level of load associated with it, but it is as close to nothing as I feel that I can do. It is a very enlightening experience to point your ski through the gates and make a conscious effort to do LESS than you usually do and see what happens (like, a lot less). I am shocked by how much better and more connected my passes are when I do it.
    Jim Ross
  • jayskijayski Posts: 874 Mega Baller
    You stop moving into the ball, you edge change, stay in that position then decide to do all your movements in one fell swoop to facilitate the turn, spread them out more before and after the buoy at a slower pace
  • WishWish Posts: 7,925 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    edited June 2014
    That is some of the most athletic slack maintenance I've seen. If you freeze frame right at connection out of each ball, it is telling. The slack is managed very well. That could come in handy but not ideal obviously. Get further up on the boat in the pull out and glide. In the pull out and glide he has a bit of a Criss Rossi style. Actually he has a lot of his style through out the course. Guessing Rossi videos were watched or he actually coached him at some point. So why not work with that. I believe CR has gone back to two handed gate . Something to consider. But, I think the "keeping the handle" can be seen in the CR video if you freeze frame a few frames before he lets go. Then FF your sons. CRs, handle in on hip, arms bent. Your son, handle out away from hip, arms straight. Jayski has a point. He stays in that position to long. There needs to be that handle in like Than is referring to. So what does this do. If the handle is out away from the body at that point where I said to FF your son's vid, there is no pivot point where the lower body can separate from the upper and move further outbound. The only thing that can happen is the upper body gets pulled in by the boat. I suffer from this. This causes a straight path to the buoy at shorter lines and the ski is not on as high of an edge slowing in the natural ark of the ski path. So with this happening at ball one, it creates a narrow fast ride into one ball which then requires an abrupt turn into slack and BANG. The hit and off he goes. Then it's just a struggle from there with all kinds of impressive slack management. So watch CR and FF frame by frame when he leaves the second wake to the point where he lets go. That is the difference I think will make that pass easier and what Than and jayski mention. And the next line doable.He most likely will need to drop back a loop or two and practice the crap out of that and get it drilled into his head. Make those 28s and 32s wider then ever before!! Then consider shortening it. The other thing I see is him coming back on the handle to soon out of 135 but I also think it's a symptom of the above. Cool thing is he skis well enough for me to notice he skis a lot like CR. =)
    .
    .
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Than_Boganjipster43Skoot1123
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,356 Mega Baller
    @wish good stuff. Thanks
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
  • Bruce_ButterfieldBruce_Butterfield Posts: 1,598 Member of the BallOfSpray Hall Of Fame
    edited June 2014
    The slack out of the buoy is the result, not the problem. The problem is between the first wake and the release - too much separation between hips and the handle causing early release and flat ski vs tight line in the preturn and the ski casting out. Several ways to think about fixing - top of the list is to push more with the legs through the wakes and drive the leading hip up to the handle through the wakes and all the way to the start of the release. Look at the video of Rossi and compare the relation between hips and handle behind the boat to what Stevie is doing. There is the root of the problem.

    It all starts on the turn in for the gates - front leg is stiff and right shoulder and hips are dropping back making it impossible to get the handle connected from the start. He needs to drive his hips forward and keep the weight on the ball of the front foot on the glide and turn in.
    I'm Ancient. WTH do I know?
    jipster43Skoot11236balls
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,330 Mega Baller
    one thing i noticed is he is on his inside edge in the glide for a brief moment before he turns in. the result of this is hes beginning to loose speed and fall back on the boat right when he doesnt want to. riding that inside edge prematurely is in anticipation of the turn in and its robbing him of valuable momentum.
  • jhughesjhughes Posts: 1,003 Mega Baller
    edited June 2014
    @Bruce_Butterfield‌ exactly what I'm having trouble with at -28. @Razorskier1‌ I also believe I over-load too early and too hard causing an insta-release at the wake. I wish I could fix this.
  • GaryWilkinsonGaryWilkinson Posts: 342 Solid Baller
    edited June 2014
    Compound problem but yes, I agree that the slack is the result, not the origin of the problem.

    Watch CR video and he has less slack at shorten line lengths than early in the set. IMHO when he keeps the handle in close pre-buoy it allows him to, while at the buoy, come around more completely thus rotating the ski and his body to a point more away-facing, or more cross course than on the passes he has a bit of slack. Slack line for me at least, is a result of 2things, excessive speed and more importantly, not being able to quickly get the ski around to complete the turn resulting in a flatter ski and slack line. So I'd say concentrate on anything and everything that allows you to complete the turn, if that means keeping the handle close to be free of the boat pre-buoy and maybe turning more quickly around the ball, then have at her!

    Great skiing !
    I need to ski back to the handle obviously.
  • jmvana1jmvana1 Posts: 62 Baller
    Very insightful @Razorskier1‌. I appreciate the way you describe the solution to handle separation and I can't wait to implement tonight. I am most certain that I am overloading through my gate which is forcing seperation.
    Life is good!
  • matthewbrownmatthewbrown Posts: 457 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Bruce_Butterfield‌ is spot on. while everyone else has focused on the handle separation in the preturn, bruce has addressed the root cause of this handle separation. i would even take it one step further and say that the problem starts at the finish of the 1,3,5 turns....when you are finishing your 1,3,5 turn, your hips begin to drop back, the only way to keep them over your knees and feet is to transfer your mass forward with more front foot pressure at the backside of the buoy. if you wait to try to move your hips forward behind the boat it will be too late. by staying ahead of the ski out of the turn with your mass you will get more of the ski in the water, create more acceleration and angle thereby giving you a better path into 2,4 which will eliminate your slack. i would keep videoing your sets and watch Rossi's and try to copy his body position out of 1,3,5. you can even see with Rossi, as the line gets shorter, he does a better job of staying on top of the ski out of 1,3,5
    jipster43Skoot1123
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    @matthewbrown -- yesterday in the course in a nasty head-tail I worked to "ski from my core". by this I mean that I tried to tighten up my core before my first move for the pull out and then use my core to generate the movement rather "tipping my shoulders" to create movement. I think this is comparable to your "transfer of mass". Also, when I concentrate on skiing from my core, it tends to automatically make me anchor the handle where it belongs and, with a tight core, allows me to keep the handle close as I travel outbound off of the second wake. Just another way to think about it for me.
    Jim Ross
  • skinutskinut Posts: 411 Baller
    @matthewbrown I am struggling from that exact same thing on my offside. My hips drop behind me as I come out of the turn, ski goes flat, and I can never get the stack I need behind the boat. You mentioned having more front foot pressure on the ski at the finish of the turn. Are there any other things to concentrate on to keep those hips moving forward, ie counter rotate into the turn, shoulders level, etc.? It's seems no matter what I do when I finish the turn my hips are dragging.
  • matthewbrownmatthewbrown Posts: 457 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @skinut everyone is different as far as what the key words are to get the job done...sometimes just thinking about the correct end result will let you athletically figure out how to get there. the correct end result is to not let the ski slip out in front of you at the finish of the turn and to stay inside the turning arc with your body for as long as possible...look at this pass from Terry Winter, the ski never gets ahead of his body until the second wake when the acceleration phase is done. if you look at the video that started this thread, you can see that the ski is ahead of his body after each turn which is causing some problems

  • matthewbrownmatthewbrown Posts: 457 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @Razorskier1‌ I think that tight core like you were talking about is key to the offside turn and cut especially.
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,344 Mega Baller
    hey @matthewbrown‌ - how important do you think that subtle move up/body extension that Terry does right as he is releasing the handle is to being able to keep his COM moving through the turn? I think it's HUGE and under-appreciated, under-discussed. That is what transitions him from being behind his feet after the edge change to getting back up over his front foot. That and staying tight on the line through and after the release. There are few other skiers that I see do this as well or pronounced (even though I called it subtle) as Terry. This is something I'm working on now and I feel huge potential for this getting me out of my decades-long slump of being too heavy at the finish of the turn.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • skinutskinut Posts: 411 Baller
    @mattbrown makes sense. I just wish I knew the magic thing that would help my mind and body understand how to finish the turn with the body aligned.
  • matthewbrownmatthewbrown Posts: 457 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    @skinut ...you gotta go ski with someone who can throw a really good eye ball on you, then you will here the correct specifics. @jimbrake I don't know, I think anytime you try to force a movement you only get in trouble. as the line got shorter, the movement to the front of the ski was less apparent....on the 32 he was just so damn early that he was doing pretty much whatever he wanted
    MJ1
  • jimbrakejimbrake Posts: 1,344 Mega Baller
    @matthewbrown‌ - hmmm. I dunno. I've been watching Terry a long time and I see him doing that in all his passes. Not sure the move is all that forced. Maybe it was when he was 10 or 11 at Willy's, but not now. After I wrote that, I thought, "I should've included that I see you doing something similar". It doesn't look exactly the same, but you do what I'm talking about too. I see the same thing in Marcus, Kevin Bishop, and lots of other really technically proficient skiers. Do you not feel yourself move up on your front foot coming into the buoy? When I do it, it really helps me as long as I stay there through the turn back to the handle - that is key.
    "...all of the basic fun banter"
  • I5boiI5boi Posts: 152 Baller
    Thanks @ jimbrake that is the first time I have read it described like that. You must have watched that video a lot. To me it seems like it allows the ski and body to release and settle into a nice controlled turn compared to some other theories. I will try and practice tomorrow.
  • I5boiI5boi Posts: 152 Baller
    @disland‌ what camera mount are you using and what is the source?
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,356 Mega Baller
    wakeye iPhone 4S and the wakeye app
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
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