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Judges score...?

tbrenchleytbrenchley Posts: 120 Open or 55K Rated Skier
Let me first say that watching a video and being there judging in person is NOT the same thing, but I am shocked that nobody (well that I've seen in threads so far) has brought up the thought that a score of 3.5 probably wasn't accurate. The video doesn't give the perfect angle to make this call but having watched the video a number of times in full speed and slow motion I can't give her more than 3.25. If anyone was there and saw something different I'd love to hear it but from the video that was posted I can't see more than 3.25. Either way congratulations to some amazing skiing by Regina. What would you score as a judge based off this video
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Comments

  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,548 Mega Baller
    She still has the handle in her hand quite a distance after the buoy. Since her 10.25m rope is a good 1.25m short of the buoy, and the boat continues to advance, it's impossible to still have the handle without the ski crossing back over the buoy line. Even more so if you're only 5'7".

    Therefore I think the video evidence strongly supports a call of 3.5. With the rule now in place that all benefit of doubt goes to the skier, it's even easier to call it 3.5.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,349 Mega Baller
    @Than_Bogan‌ not trying to antagonize the situation but the "benefit of the doubt" rule is an AWSA rule. We're talking about a class R score held according to the IWWF rule book.

    Also, while I agree with your assessment about rope length and getting back inside the buoy line, you could make an argument about "skiing position" and, potentially about "significantly displacing" the buoy.

    I wasn't there. I've only seen this video and I'd really like to see the world record bumped up a notch or two. So I'm not suggesting my opinion about the score.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Vice President
    AWSA Southern Region EVP
    Than_Bogan
  • tbrenchleytbrenchley Posts: 120 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    There is only proof of her having the handle in her hand for about 10 feet past the buoy. The reason she loses the handle is because she is continuing in an outward direction away from the center of the course, not because she just couldn't hold on in an attempt to make a turn. I also agree with @Klindy that benefit of the doubt does not work in this situation you have to call it as you see it and I can only see 3.25
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,548 Mega Baller
    "she is continuing in an outward direction away from the center of the course"

    How is she doing that? The geometry prohibits it. The camera angle creates that illusion, but I don't see how it would be possible to continue outbound at that line length and height combination.

    The "skiing position" argument may be valid. I do not know the nuances of how that is interpretted in IWSF.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • tbrenchleytbrenchley Posts: 120 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    She can continue to get width up until the point she is even with the pylon of the boat. She is not to that point because with reach it isn't required that she be that high on the boat. You can easily see her turn at 3 ball she is quite a bit behind the pylon (I would dare say she is luck to be even up to the back of the boat as she turns the 3 ball so yes it is possible and maybe it is an illusion but the tip of the ski never changes direction from when she is throwing the ski around the 4 ball.
  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,548 Mega Baller
    The sine of 80 degrees is about .985, so there's less than 2% more width theoretically available after that.

    Perhaps time to "agree to disagree."

    I will say I thought 3.25 at full speed from that camera angle. When I looked more carefully I left with no doubt of 3.5.

    Will be interesting to see what the ISWF approves if anything.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,330 Mega Baller
    not that it matters since the judges decide but i agree with @tbrenchley. the ski keeps going outbound while her body continues to stretch out and eventually becomes parallel to the water. the rope length alone will not prevent outbound travel of the ski until her body is fully stretched out and shes laying on the water. by the time that happened the handle was long gone. to my eye theres no way that ski turned back inbound, @tbrenchley nailed it.
    tbrenchley
  • ralral Posts: 1,740 Mega Baller
    @rico, she needs to go inside the buoy line to score 0.5. Passing 3 and not getting inside the buoy line is 0.25
    Rodrigo Andai
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,823 Mega Baller
    The person with the camera is on the shore just after 3-ball. If I freeze the video when Regina is headed across the wake after 3, I can trace the prop wash as an indicator of the center-line of the course. As she reaches 4-ball, I can transfer that line for perspective as to where the buoy line likely is. Keeping that line, I can apply it to the last frame where I think she still has the handle and is riding the ski. Since she is actually further to the right, that line might need to rotate counter clockwise just a bit in relation to the fixed position of the photographer.
    image

    Anyone who was viewing those still shots, should now see that the buoy line is NOT perfectly horizontal in the framing of the shot, due to the camera's location.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
    jipster43Than_Bogan
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,330 Mega Baller
    @ToddL -no disrespect but i dont think your seeing this right. your yellow line in the middle photo is supposed to define the buoy line but it can't be correct because if you extend it left-ward even to the edge of the frame it shows her ski being well outside the buoy line for at least 10 -15 feet before the ball. in fact at the edge of the frame her ski still wouldnt even be close to being inside your theoretical buoy line.

    that would be a physical impossibility for a 5 foot 4 inch skier even if she was fully laid out nearly horizontal which she is not. in fact shes pretty up right almost all the way to the ball. this emphasizes how hard it is to apply a 2d line to a video frame of 3d action and use it to accurately prove anything. we know regina cant be outside the buoy line for that long before the ball at 41 off so your line angle must be off. doesnt mean she didnt earn the full half point but it does mean your yellow line doesnt prove it one way or the other.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,823 Mega Baller
    edited June 2014
    @mwetskeir - I guess my point was that the buoy line isn't horizontal in the frame. It is possibly even more angled than what I did. BTW, my score would be 3.5.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • auskierauskier Posts: 456 Baller
    no doubt its close. hopefully we will have the boat video soon. Obviously the angle we can see isnt the best way to tell.
    I agree with the quarter call. In the photo @Rico posted above, I think she has lost the handle just past the ball. Being as late as she was, she was still on an outbound path with her ski. at best she is parallel with the buoy line. that's my opinion.
    Toby
  • mrpreussmrpreuss Posts: 133 Baller
    Any slalom skier setting a world record is always happy with a 1/4 buoy score.
    This score earns them world record bonuses from sponsors and the recognition of a world record with the ability to do it again with a similar performance. Getting to 4.5 is much more attainable then getting to 5 ball. I'm sure Nate would have been happy with 2.25 so he might get 2.5 later with a similar run (if that ever happens).
    Than_Bogan
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,095
    edited June 2014
    Not one person here can see the full perspective at 4 ball from THIS video, which is off axis high and behind. So it's pointless to be internet judge/scorer on this. What I do know, because I've seen them do it, is that Cedar Ridge has the video system set up to be able to step through individual frames on boat path, both gates, and boat camera video to make the call. And the best pan am and Sr judges were sitting behind the 42 inch tv screen watching those video frames. I trust the score as called far more than that of the armchair judges.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

    klindybishop8950
  • EdbrazilEdbrazil Posts: 1,396 Historical Baller
    This video is a non-official shore video. Nice to see it, but: Along with centerline and
    endgate video, video from the boat is required for Class R (world record). That video should
    be a lot more definite on 1/4 vs. 1/2. Either way, it will be a WR if the other factors are OK.
  • tbrenchleytbrenchley Posts: 120 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I am merely stating that based on the evidence (video posted above) that I could not give her a score higher than 3.25 which is still amazing skiing and would be a world record. I was not there and this video is not official but after pictures with lines that @ToddL‌ put up I am even more convinced that 3.5 was not possible but that's just wild speculation by me which makes this debate even more fun.
    Than_Bogan
  • MillerTime38MillerTime38 Posts: 369 Crazy Baller
    3.25 from the Russian judge. I know for sure she got 3 1/4 but I cannot say 100% she got 3 1/2, that is how they taught me to count buoys

    The skier is usually traveling faster than the boat on the edge change so the argument that the boat is driving away form her is no good, she is traveling down course faster than the boat. Last time I checked 10.25 meters is just under 4' short of the buoy line. A 5'5" skier with an extra 18" reach and the handle being 1 foot from her hand on the last photo seems to make the 1/4 buoy possible in this situation.

    Either way unbelievable skiing
  • liquid dliquid d Posts: 1,173 Mega Baller
    3.5 Liquid D has spoken...and that's the end of it.
    The_MSJody_Sealskidawg
  • CamCam Posts: 327 Solid Baller
    edited August 2014

    1/4 buoy at 41 off
  • MattPMattP Posts: 6,065 Mega Baller
    @Cam‌ I fixed your link for the video.
    Cam
  • ForrestGumpForrestGump Posts: 6,095
    @cam I'd have not given him 1/4 buoy as he appeared to run over the top.
    Shane "Crash" Hill

  • tbrenchleytbrenchley Posts: 120 Open or 55K Rated Skier
    I would have given him 1/4 if I were the judge...that was a legit 1/4 buoy
  • MillerTime38MillerTime38 Posts: 369 Crazy Baller
    1/4 buoy
  • kstateskierkstateskier Posts: 524 Solid Baller
    definitely 1/4 there...
    KStateSkier
    Bradley Beach - Lone Rock Ski Club, Missouri
    2004 Malibu Response LXI, 2014 D3 Helix 66"
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,975 Mega Baller
    That jump is awfully close to 2 ball.
    Mark Shaffer
  • jcampjcamp Posts: 823 Mega Baller
    1/4. @Chef23, check out Adam Sedlmajer's instagram account. He has a video of him hitting that ramp this weekend. Crazy.
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 5,975 Mega Baller
    @jcamp I saw Adam's video and the video of Freddy made me think it was more than a one off issue.
    Mark Shaffer
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