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"always keep on skiing, the judges might have missed the call"

HortonHorton Posts: 30,603 Administrator
edited August 2014 in Rules/Politics/Issues
I read the phrase "always keep on skiing, the judges might have missed the call" in a post this morning. This is my second try at a poll.

The question is if you know you missed a ball, is it acceptable to keep going to try to fool the judges. Key words are "Try to fool the judges"

I am making this anonymous to get more honest answers.

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"always keep on skiing, the judges might have missed the call" 88 votes

Yes get what you can
21% 19 votes
Who cares
4% 4 votes
It is poor sportsmanship
73% 65 votes
«1

Comments

  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,603 Administrator
    @RazorRoss3‌ i 100% agree

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  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,859 Mega Baller
    @RazorRoss3‌ I also 100% agree. In a close call, the skier should keep skiing. Let the judges who are intentionally positioned to assess the skier's path, do the judgement.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • 94009400 Posts: 646 Crazy Baller
    The key words here are if you know you missed the ball, I had a case last year that I was sure I made the ball (6 ball in this case, pretty much over the top). Almost everyone that saw it thought I missed it including the judges. But I have also been judging similar cases that are almost impossible to call due to apexing right at the buoy. I usually give the benefit of doubt to the skier but have seen lots of cases to close to call. The softer/smaller buoys make judging much more difficult. In the old days, fewer skiers would risk it with the size of the buoys, now we can plow through them....most of the time.
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,476 Mega Baller
    Is waterski like golf or more like football?

    Golf- your supposed to call penalties on yourself. It is a deep seated culture that goes back to the origins of the game.

    Football- No one has ever called holding on themselves. Holding happens on every play. Are the payers bad sports?

    If its going to be like golf, then lets get rid of the judges and have everyone report their score when they get back to the dock
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    eyepeeler
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,603 Administrator
    @disland‌ for me it is golf with judges. With no judges everyone would run 43 off.

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  • Than_BoganThan_Bogan Posts: 6,913 Mega Baller
    VERY hard question with a lot of gray area. Mostly I subscribe to "skiers ski; judges judge." But intentionally trying to fool judges starts to tread on the same territory as flopping to cause the official to make a bad call in basketball, soccer, hockey etc.
    Nathaniel Bogan -- GUT Padawan
  • Stevie BoyStevie Boy Posts: 2,210 ★★★★Quad Panda Award Recipient ★★★★
    Poor Sportsmanship, who needs them, except circumstances as RazorRoss3 has mentioned .

    Addicted To Carbon Fibre

  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,603 Administrator
    edited August 2014
    I have seen a Pro Event won with a score that were false. The fake was good and the judges missed it. By chance I was in the perfect spot to see the skier carve way inside the ball and then go round the next one. There is no way the skier did not know. I have never respected that person since*.

    I believe some skiers do this all the time

    (*This was 20+ years ago and not a skier you will think of off the top of your head. They are no longer in the sport)

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  • usaski1usaski1 Posts: 760 Mega Baller
    I think it depends on the size of the miss.. If its like pretty obvious, then yeah, just stop skiing.. but sometimes you don't know... In that case, you just keep going... and what if you know you didn't make it, but not sure if others knew you didn't make it? Keep going!! In the end, it's only about how you feel with yourself. I know it doesn't feel good to miss 6, get credit for it, and ski the next pass. My job is to ski. Judges count the balls.
    Mark Turner -- Water skiing changed my life forever.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,603 Administrator
    edited August 2014
    @usaski1 if the skier is not sure there is no question. That is not the subject.

    One the other hand how often does the skier not know if they want around a ball? yes I know that if you go over a bubble balls or any ball it is grayer . Again that is not what I am talking about.

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  • gjohnsongjohnson Posts: 347 Solid Baller
    This is a huge pet peeve of mine. The key phrase "if you know you missed a ball". I know of two people who regularly do this in Minnesota. It drives me crazy. At the State tournament, one of them skied 2-3 feet inside 3 & 5 while skiing around the other buoys, then had the nerve to position themselves on the right side of the wake after getting through the exit gates hoping the driver was going to drop the skier and shorten the line. When the boat headed for the starting dock instead, the skier quickly adjusted and skied to shore.
    Greg Johnson ~ Team Beer
    Horton
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,710 Mega Baller
    edited August 2014
    As tower 1 I often couldn't tell you what happens down yonder. Sometimes boat doesn't call it and first and the two towers create the majority of 2 of 3 and it flies. Bad on the skier.

    I haven't held a big grudge when a skier does this kind of thing...I don't respect their choice but they are the one that has to look in the mirror each morning and decide if they like what they see. It ain't just sportsmanship, it's basic honesty.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,473 Crazy Baller
    edited August 2014
    Gray area because you go over bubble buoys? What happened to the rule of "significantly displace a buoy"? Size of the miss? @usaski1‌ "what if you know you didn't make it but not sure if others knew you didn't make it", keep going!!" Doesn't seem to agree with the next sentence in your post stating that it doesn't feel good to ski the next pass. Then next you say it's your job to ski and judges to count buoys. Talk about mixed signals!
    This harkens back to a thread a couple of weeks ago concerning Jason Staab. You know what he did.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • LeonLLeonL Posts: 2,473 Crazy Baller
    6balls, I don't see where the sequence of call ins is pertinent. However proper sequence should have the boat call in last, so that the time for the majority score can be called in if different than boat score.
    Leon Leonard Stillwater Lake KY - SR Driver SR Judge
  • ZmanZman Posts: 1,748 Mega Baller
    The one that cracked me up was not only keep skiing, the judges might have missed the call, "give a fist pump out the gates". All in jest however.....
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,710 Mega Baller
    @leonl I don't like that the boat calls last cuz one of the towers depending on the end the skier potentially misses on cannot see. If I can't see it well, I'm likely to go with the other towers call and they may not have seen well. Now we have 2 of 2 judges making the call and the boat's call doesn't matter.

    Again I think it's just honesty...skier should flag themselves if they blew it. I once got sent a new slalom by mistake! Brand new KD (just like the one I skied at the time) so I called the rep to see what was up...they about crapped their pants that I called and was honest about it. The rep says aw hell, just keep it. Nope...give me a RA# it's coming back.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 822 Crazy Baller
    Your son/daughter needs to run a certain score at a tournament to qualify for Nationals, and this is their last opportunity.

    On their second pass you watch in horror as they just miss the gates as they run all 6.

    There is no doubt they missed, you were in the perfect spot to see it.

    However, the judges give them a completed pass, and then 3 passes later they get their qualifying score for Nationals.

    Would you tell the officials and your child the real score, or let it go?
    Anthony Warren
  • usaski1usaski1 Posts: 760 Mega Baller
    edited August 2014
    @leonL Imagine this scenario. You are late.. you stretch out, and you knew you did not make it... but it was way close.. maybe you hit the ball.. maybe you didn't, but it went down the left side of the ski. You go through the gates, and pull out. You hear the radios all call 6, except one. Are you going to tell the boat judge "I didn't make it, take me back to the dock, or let me walk" If you do, your a bigger man than I'll ever be. Conflicting statements.. sure... you only have to live with yourself. Ever made a decision you knew was wrong, but did it anyway? I have, and I'll do it again. Maybe some wont like what I've had to say here. That's fine. I think we all knew that this subject could get hot. I had one person tell me this year "just fake it the whole way, you could get a big score" I couldn't do that, but I might fudge a 6 ball.
    Mark Turner -- Water skiing changed my life forever.
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,383 Mega Baller
    @ScarletArrow‌, that sounds like a rare case of losing either way. I think the right choice is honesty and sportsmanship but I'm not sure anyone could make that choice in the moment and if the judges gave it to them I think you would immediately rationalize that you must have seen wrong.
  • Chuck_DickeyChuck_Dickey Posts: 1,462 Crazy Baller
    If the skier knows they missed it and don't fess up, that's cheating IMHO.

    If the skier truly doesn't know, then take what the judges say and move on.

    My conscience would not let me take what I knew wasn't mine.
    rico
  • JackQJackQ Posts: 412 Open or Level 9 Skier
    If you know that you missed the buoy, and keep skiing I consider it cheating!

    In thirty years+ I never went inside a buoy and then continued. A number of years ago in Mens3, a skier won the Regionals after skiing inside #2 and #4 and then acted excited when he "made the pass" Sure the judges should have made the correct call. I and a few other of the top seeds had a heated discussion with the individual, and I have not seen him pull the stunt again.

    I always give the skier the "benefit of the doubt" when judging, but for those that I have seem pull the "I made it, act" I don't. They better clearly make the buoy!
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 822 Crazy Baller
    @RazorRoss3‌ Good points.

    I guess my point is that on the internet, not only can everyone can run 38off, everyone would always make ethical and moral choice.

    I'm just pointing out that when there is something significant at stake, our "moral compass" gets tested.

    The problem with the poll is that it's a bit sterile and simplistic - it's basically asking, "do you think skiers should be honest and a good sport?" Well who wouldn't say yes to that on a message board?

    In my fictional scenario above it's very plausible in a local Class C tournament, where everyone knows everyone else, and friends are judging other friends (and their kids), to "look the other way" in that kind of instance.

    Do I really want to be the one to pull the gates on my ski buddy's daughter on her qualifying run for Nationals?

    I might argue that it's an "unwritten rule" to not pull someone gates if they run the pass and use the same logic that Dave Miller did in his Big Dawg post about the unwritten rule about not asking for a reride - i.e. it creates too much tension between friends.
    I guess you could call it a un written rule we would not ask for a reride due to lights because it would cause a lot of tension between us as friends....
    Anthony Warren
    ricski39
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 822 Crazy Baller
    @rico I understand my child wouldn't know if they missed the gates...

    But I did, so to be consistent, shouldn't I as the parent step in and say, "No, that's not the correct score." ?

    Obviously not just any spectator would do that, but I'm the parent, is this a teaching moment for sportsmanship?

    What if my friends, who were judging, told me afterwards (as I mentioned in my other post) that they intentionally looked the other way because a) they knew what was at stake, b) my child ran the pass and c) they ran next one?
    Anthony Warren
  • ScarletArrowScarletArrow Posts: 822 Crazy Baller
    I overheard a conversation one time between a parent and child at a tournament. They were discussing how you can't mess up your deepwater start at a Regional or National tournament.

    The parent said to the child (paraphrase), "If you miss your deepwater start, just tell them you thought your ski hit something... a stick or rock... so you let go. Yeah, it's a little fib, but at least you get to keep skiing."
    Anthony Warren
  • RazorRoss3RazorRoss3 Posts: 1,383 Mega Baller
    The family friends discount is a hard one. If you aren't a judge it's your call to mention anything, if you're a judge I think you have to make the tough call for the sake of the sport.
  • HortonHorton Posts: 30,603 Administrator
    edited August 2014
    @ScarletArrow‌ if your daughter gets gates she did not go through and that bumps my daughter from Nationals...

    For the record I would take my mother's gates if she missed them. That is the rule. It is not relative. It is not grey. As a judge you call what you see.

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