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Cool Mapple video showing difference in turn shape at 38 off vs 28 off

Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,066 Mega Baller
I think I missed this last year but it popped up after watching the video of Andy's back foot.

It shows how documents how different the turn shape is at 38 off vs 28 off. In it Andy talks about the need for a different ski setup for -38 but he doesn't really talk about what changes are needed except for a need to carry more speed at -38.

I haven't spent much time at -38 but I think the different turn shape applies to a lesser extent at -35. When I have had some success at -35 I feel like I am just trying to stretch the ski around the ball and the turns aren't as round as they are at -28 and -32.

I stink at fin tuning though so I have no idea how it translates into fin adjustments.

I need the snow to melt so I can ski.
Mark Shaffer


  • lpskierlpskier Posts: 3,171 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    My Canadian ski friend and occasional BOS poster Scott Mason made that video. Scott's ski partner is Brent McNicol, aka The Clown. Good guys all. Great video. Not the type of information you get at ski school, typically.
    John Wilkins- Si non pro sanguine quem ludus ne. #iskiconnelly
  • Mike GileMike Gile Posts: 384 Crazy Baller
    I like @ToddL 's comment and analysis of the Andy's video and the still shot overlay.

    For me one of the biggest mental challenges at -38 is making the turn further down course. The geometry is different enough from -35 to change the look and feel. The apex of the turn is more where the ball is; backsiding the ball is not really an option any more. This coupled with the increased speed and shallower attack angle makes my mental clock tell me I need to get going now! This makes me rush the turn and the usual bad things that happen.

    The overlay picture above shows the geometry and paints a picture of how it should happen. Hopefully my pea brain can take this to the water!
  • WishWish Posts: 8,268 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Mike Gile Totally agree with everything you've just said and think that's a major block to getting though 38. It's different visually as well. Less of "you" actually rounds the ball. Your eyes do not see the same thing. It's almost like starting over. Have to erase, so to speak, everything you just felt, saw and experienced at 35 or 32 or 28. I've actually passed the ball by a good margin at 38 and basically screamed at myself to stay with it and sure enough, I rounded the next ball. It just feels so late sometimes but it is surprising how double the pass is if you stick with it and be somewhat patient. You and I must have the same pea brain cause more often then not I'm fighting inside my head not to rush.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
    Mike Gile
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,337 Mega Baller
    fascinating video. most interesting for me is at around 3:28 when the two videos are overlapped in slow motion. at both -28 and-38 he crosses through the gate with about the same angle but at -38 he gets to the ball much earlier than at -28. the video makes it look like both skiers turn the ball at the same time but if that was true the boat would be in the same place in each video since the boats location at any given moment is an absolute measure of elapsed time -within a few 100ths of a second. so he passes the ball a little more than 3/4 boat length sooner at -38 than at -28.

    equally interesting is how he has to wait for the boat to get to almost the same location for -38 as he does for -28 before he can really hook up and go. this can be seen from the relative tension in the rope for each length. if you look close the boat location where he hooks up at -28 is the same boat location where he hooks up at -38 he just travels closer to the wake at -38 before he hooks up. i'm thinking maybe this is what a coach means when advise to wait as long as possible before loading the rope?
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,337 Mega Baller
    one other thing just occurred to me about this overlapped footage. for years i heard that we ski faster at shorter line lengths because our ski path is longer on the shorter ropes. it was explained to me that the shorter rope made the skier have to travel much farther on the arching path defined by the pylon and the handle. david nelson has written that this is not true but so many people believe hes wrong that i've always leaned toward the shorter rope = longer path reasoning also since no one was offering an alternate explanation for the higher speed thing.

    The mathematical dilemma posed by a faster skier on a shorter path not out running the boat seems pretty contradictory. but if this gate and 1 ball footage is the same as how the rest of the pass goes -and theres no reason to think other wise -then it clearly proves that at least for mapple the shorter rope results in a shorter path. and the fact that he gets to the ball sooner also suggest hes going faster. so the solution to the mathematical dilemma must be in the delay for hook up after the ball.

    i just re read what i wrote. i'm inside my own head and it confuses me so it must be even worse for any one reading this but if any one gets what I'm thinking here please feel free to clarify it for me and any one else who cares.
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,337 Mega Baller
    bump -hoping for some one smarter than me to shed some light on this. that *should* be the majority on here.
  • 6balls6balls Posts: 5,687 Mega Baller
    Shorter line shorter path...I'm not 5 feet wide of each ball at 38.

    Apex at the ball, which means the finish comes later as opposed to back siding for at least two reasons: max width now has to come at the ball to get the ski around and, if one turns right at max width and high on the boat, one skis right at the side of the boat creating slack. The brief delay from apex to finish allows the boat to run out ahead just a bit.

    The great one's maintain their speed and ski inward, balanced, without significant line tension before picking up the pull of the boat. For this hack, I fall into the drink away from the boat if line tension is not there immediately. So I edge change early, put the brakes on the ski, hammer my turn and try to create tension right away.

    The pro's ski is also in a low drag attitude at hook up to accelerate efficiently, whereas I tend to be in a high drag position (too much angle, body too low to the water) at hook up.

    I get the sense that if you could remove the line right after the turn on the pro's they may glide toward the wake and sink in, whereas I would be in the hole I dug right after the buoy. Another way they are just better than me.

    On the bright side, lots of room for improvement.
    Dave Ross--die cancer die
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    edited March 2015
    @6balls -- I love the last paragraph "if you could remove the line right after the turn on the pros they may glide toward the wake and sink in, whereas I would be in the hole I dug right after the buoy". This would be an insightful baller exercise! I wonder how many of us would carry speed inward and how many of us would stop and drop?
    Jim Ross
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,337 Mega Baller
    years ago i think trent f. proposed a slalom drill where you pull hard across the wake and the let go of the handle after which you twist your hips into a countered turn and keep riding that arc till you sunk in. the purpose was to learn counter rotation and how its supposed to work and feel.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,859 Mega Baller
    edited March 2015
    I think that article was @Chris Rossi. The Invisible Line.
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,337 Mega Baller
    @ToddL -not sure where to find that rossi article you reference. the thing i'm thinking about was just a simple drill appended to a larger article about counter rotation turns and was in wsm maybe 10 -15 years ago.
  • ToddLToddL Posts: 2,859 Mega Baller
    Probably the same one. I remember seeing a picture of the pro skier in the pre turn without a handle. IIRC, another pro skier suggested the same drill. The intent being to maintain speed through the turn and become aware of how the turn can take you all the way back to the white water or beyond. I never tried it because it would require a very patient and supportive boat crew. ;-)
    -- The future of skiing depends upon welcoming novice skiers regardless of age to our sport.
  • skosneyskosney Posts: 57 Baller
    I love this video analysis, the only thing that is missing is an overlay with the boat location in the course (instead of the skier location). I think that would add some additional insight into the ski speed variation between the two line lengths.
    ... just ski.
  • mwetskiermwetskier Posts: 1,337 Mega Baller
    @skosney -you can easily interpret that in reverse. run the video up to about the 3:26 mark and then use your spacebar as a pause button. by toggling the spacebar you can stop and start the sloe mo overlap video and compare precisely the skier *and* boat positions. you can tell the visual data is essentially ' real time ' because both 28 off andy and 38 off andy pass through the entrance gate at about the same time. so everything after that tells you anything you want to know about where the boat is located relative to time and to the skier at both line lengths.
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