USAWS / AWSA - Abandon or Revolution?

HortonHorton Posts: 31,680 Administrator
edited March 2015 in Rules/Politics/Issues
Greg’s idea is not a bad one at all. He is basically saying let’s start over with a whole new vision. Some of you love it and some hate it. No shock there.

If Greg gets it going I am behind him but I think it is a very big hill to climb.

Instead of starting over perhaps we should consider REVOLUTUION. Perhaps we start with the board of directors of AWSA and USAWS, EVPs and whoever else. I think few members vote every year - I mean you guys.

I propose we simply vote out any board member or EVP who is does not actively compete or who is over 65 years old. (I am NOT against older Americans but I think our organization needs a younger world view.)

Forcing new faces into power is not a instant fix but holy the crap the ship is sinking as it is. I do not see how it could be worse.

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Comments

  • jcampjcamp Posts: 957 Mega Baller
    In order to be eligible to be a regional EVP, a candidate has to have served in various roles, such as being a current or previous AWSA director, a voting member of a standing committee and current or previous voting member of an AWSA regional council.

    I understand the intent behind this rule, you don’t want completely unknowledgeable people running the show, but it does mean that only those who’ve been around for awhile are eligible to be in the top roles. That means an energized new person, with new and fresh ideas, will be excluded, perhaps to the detriment of the organization as a whole.

    Maybe we look at this requirement more closely and see if it is inhibiting the “fresh blood” that everyone seems to want? If enough members think skier X is awesome and has great ideas, maybe they should be allowed to be an EVP regardless of how long they’ve been around.

    All that being said, I think my EVP is awesome and I really appreciate all the hard work they do. They’ll have my vote as long as they want to continue in that position.
    Horton
  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 4,001 Infinite Pandas
    Greg's idea is the ISIS of waterskiing - to hell with anything but high level slalom fanatics.

    Hit 65 and you're soylent green? While I'm not quite 65 yet, I'm better than most of the kids I coach and probably will still be when I hit 65. And the kids I coach will carry on many of my ideas.

    I do agree that people should be more involved in the organization. But this site selects for slalom fanatics so loading committees with Ballers may not be representative or best for the sport. Still, EVOLUTION is the proper way to go. New faces and ideas are good. Discussions are good as well - even ideas like Greg's promote creative thinking.

    The ship may be sinking but it seems like all the ships are sinking. When the Quidditch teams at college get more funding and support than almost all other college club sports we have to realize that the world has changed. Perhaps if the ship sinks slowly enough our sport might still be there when outdoor activities become popular again.

    Eric
    Jody_Seal
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,680 Administrator
    @eleeski if you have a better solution lead the charge

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  • eleeskieleeski Posts: 4,001 Infinite Pandas
    @Horton I'm not good at politics (will Greg ever take me seriously?). I am doing what I can though, I'm out the door to coach SDSU.

    Tell Richelle to experiment with some of my ideas, get Aarne to give me a hull to modify and go take a trick set!

    Eric
    E_T
  • BRYBRY Posts: 593 Crazy Baller
    @horton "if you have a better solution lead the charge" Really? Someone says "Hey, things seem bad here so lets all jump off the 200' cliff, that will fix it!" Someone else says "That"s not a good idea, we will die" and the reply "unless you have a better solution, shut up and jump!" Just because someone recognizes folly doesn't mean they should be ignored for not having the solution. Perhaps not how you meant it, but how it came across.

    Change for change's sake is a recipe for failure. Even the Baller's can't have any type of consensus of what the problem is, other than whatever it is that it is AWSA/USAWS fault. You even put forth that we need to identify what the issue(s) is before putting forth solutions.

    "You want to be sure not to push forward ideas that turn into wasted investments. In the long run, these plans are like flushing money (and time and effort) down the toilet. Think about your organization. Where are there opportunities for true, positive change? Where are the doors that are waiting to be pushed open? If you see the cracks, will you know what to do next? Do you have the ideas you need to be the go-to person in your field?"
    Intheday
  • skidawgskidawg Posts: 3,508 Mega Baller
    I am not sure of the answer, I have however seen the sporting side of many different venues: Mountain biking, triathlon, road cycling, competitive swimming, (ugh-running).... and all of these are doing quite well, events are flourishing. Our precious events are withering like falling oil prices. Is it just to difficult of a sport to promote due to the high cost and logisitics to participate? Is it the old guard not willing to think outside the box at the headquarters? I don't know, but it is hard to justify keeping my kids in a sport (even though we all love it) that is dwindling, when time and money could be better spent in any of the previous mentioned sports that will provide fruitful opportunities. #timeforachangeforthebetter!!!!!!
    NWA....Heaven on earth!
    [Deleted User]thager
  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,680 Administrator
    Is it the old guard not willing to think outside the box at the headquarters?

    I think that is A problem

    Is that the whole problem? No but the ship needs a rudder before it can go anywhere.

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    BRYmmosley899akale15Bulldog
  • raynrayn Posts: 421 Solid Baller
    First I am rather new to the tournament scene(less than 5 years). I like the idea of more slalom tournaments, since that is all I do.

    The question I have is "Can't this movement be from the LOC up, not the other way around?". It is my impression that LOC's are the ones who decide format and rounds and cost. So we need to get more LOC's to do 2 day, 2+ rounds per day Slalom only tournaments. Forming a new organization is going to have to recruit the sites/LOC anyway, so spend the time doing that change first.

    I know it does not solve the Nationals/Regionals problem, but one step at a time. Show it works in the grassroots organized level and make the change happen.
    Ray Newmark -
    BRYHortonMateo_Vargaschris_logan
  • BRYBRY Posts: 593 Crazy Baller
    @rayn Spot on! Yes, LOC's are the ones who decide format and rounds and cost. With a class F just about anything goes. Class C needs to be regular slalom with gates, 6 buoys, boat down the middle. Pretty simple but multi-round and H2H all allowed in current system, rule book describes how. And for a C it's really not that complex, it can't be as I did one.

    Here's an idea, you be the tournament director/organizer. A class C is not that hard, no video or senior judges required. Bet you have met people at tournaments you attended you could call who are judges who would love to be part of a fun tournament. A few regulars and fill with assistants, good to go. A 1 day, 2 round with a head to head is lots of fun. Just takes desire, a little time and a few hundred cash up front (get back in entry's, I broke even at 22).

    You would grow the sport and make it more positive. New blood (you) with energy can make a huge difference.
  • DrDaveDrDave Posts: 10 Baller
    I think a lot of guys are missing the real reason why more skiers aren't skiing tournaments. In competition, for one to want to compete, they have to have a sense that they are truly competitive! The current way AWSA tournaments are set up, they cater to rankings and really the top 5% of skiers.

    I think for many this is why they chose not to "compete". I know it is the case for me.
    crashmandrewski32Ed_Obermeier
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,590 Mega Baller
    I vote Horton the Benevolent Dictator of the New waterski Regime! At least til he is 65.
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


  • HortonHorton Posts: 31,680 Administrator
    @Jody_Seal I am just the media & that is the way it is going to stay

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  • MISkierMISkier Posts: 3,349 Mega Baller
    You can still do an ability-based competition within a normal class C. There is no reason you can't get some additional use of the same score you get in your class C. You'll get ranking credit and possibly some other achievement, based on what you decide to do for recognition in the ability-based scoring.
    The worst slalom equipment I own is between my ears.
    Wish9400inland
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,798 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Horton you said "Greg’s idea is not a bad one at all. He is basically saying let’s start over with a whole new vision." My quesiton is why?

    You can do EVERYTHING Greg's suggesting under the current rules and with the current organization. I'm at a complete loss as to why we need a new organization to make any of this happen.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board

    Mateo_VargasBRY
  • klindyklindy Posts: 2,798 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @OB sanction it as Class X and sort as you wish. Only 'restriction' is reporting to AWSA what you did and how it worked so it can be evaluated/discussed. For a format change as you suggest, contact your EVP and request the scores apply as normal on the ranking list. Alternatively, pull 2 or 3 rounds 'traditionally' and pull two more with this format.
    Keith Lindemulder
    AWSA Chairman of the Board

    Wish
  • crashmancrashman Posts: 722 Crazy Baller
    edited March 2015
    @OB as a non-tournament 15 offer I think your loop divisions sound fun. I wouldn't get anything out of skiing a tournament for rankings at my skill level. spending a Saturday getting smoked by some dude in my age bracket with fewer pounds and better abs always sounds less fun than the weekly informal "king of the lake" ski sessions we have at our lake. I could see where it would be fun skiing against a simple ability based group- somehow that seems more appealing to me than the buoy average system where I "beat" a guy because I improved my average even though he skied -35 and I got 2 at -22. To me it seems that the national ranking system should be a secondary consequence generated by fun and spirited competitions, not the main focus of the events.
    slalom addiction triggering irrational behavior
    DrDave
  • BRYBRY Posts: 593 Crazy Baller
    edited March 2015
    @crashman @drdave @OB INT, it's what your asking for....
    http://www.intleague.com
    It's not for me, I don't get it and I have some issues with how it's organization works. Being the champion of "can't run X" doesn't appeal to me. But that's me. I have friends who love INT. Check it out, if it get's you out and skiing tournaments then that is a great thing.

    Never quite understood the "I won't participate if I can't win/get my trophy". I doubt I will ever win AWSA nationals, but I have a great time watching all the top competitors. I also really like it when I place well above my seed. I have had some of the best times of my life at AWSA tournaments up in WA, hanging with people that sometimes all I have in common with is skiing. Now in FL I enjoy both the big R's, getting to know some people to hang with, and finding the smaller C's that are less "serious" but cleanly run and mostly about fun. And I judge/score, that's opened a lot of doors.
    9400RichardDoane
  • bdoughertybdougherty Posts: 86 Baller
    @OB is right on, every round has to count towards ranking or nobody shows. I have attempted to run ability based/handicapped events with the intention of uniting the divide between the grassroots skiers and the more advanced "ranking chaser" (I am included there). It hasn't worked in uniting the two groups. I understand the ranking format but until that changes I think it will be difficult to generate any true competition into backyard tournaments. This model is working on a small scale (see the buckeye buoy tour) but it takes organizers and skiers who are willing to sacrifice a round or two and ski grassroots divisions/fun format. It works somewhat in other sports like golf, bowling etc. but in my opinion would take major restructuring in waterskiing.
    [Deleted User]
  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,197
    Every time I compete in a tourney my 11 year old son will say "did you win Dad?" And I go through the process of explaining how I'm competing against myself while he quickly loses interest in my response. I agree that a format change to make things more fun for everybody is in order
    Daryn Dean - Lakes of Katy, TX
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    WishE_T
  • Jody_SealJody_Seal Posts: 3,590 Mega Baller
    Class X get's nothing! no rankings, no qualification,no records. oh! It's and experimental event! I can experiment on my own time!

    I say Revolution!!
    Time For AWSA to remove itself from the Baggage and bondage of USAWS. Now that is an experiment that has done nothing except cause undue bureaucracy and BS policy's for the 3-event sport.
    Revolution!!!
    Hobby Boats can be expensive when the hobbyist is limited on their own skill and expertise.


    MattPE_T
  • ntxntx Posts: 847 Crazy Baller
    It is starting to make sense. It is only fun if you win. Silly me. All this time I thought that mentality only existed in the younger generation we have. I guess it has also crept into middle age.
    The bottom line is that you can set up and run your tournament just about any way you want. If you want to have a 22 off group, fine do it. If you want three rounds slalom only, fine do it. Three events fine. Do it. There are plenty of slalom only tournament out there. I don't see how a new organization will do any good.

    In the big dawg beginning, there was a big buzz about it. It filled up fast. Now it looks like it is starting to loss some of it's sex appeal. Events are still filling up, but with lower rated skiers filling spots 30 - 50. You still get the same top 20-30 but the lower half looks like it is turning over. The lower ranked guys don't win so they are starting to say "This is no fun" "I'm not winning" I'm not going" It is fun once or twice for the experience but how many that don't make the top 16 ski most of them?

    @ob said it. "If the rounds don't count, they don't come" So, is it about the fun or the score that needs to count. For me, if I pay to ski a tournament, the score needs to count. I can have fun any day goofing off with friends with old skis or opposite foot slalom or wrong side start or trick ski slalom or...... If I pay for a tournament I need the scores to count. The fun stuff can happen post event at the host site discretion, whatever that may be. For some sites it might be adult beverages. For others a pizza party for the kids. It depends on the event and the skiers involved.
    BRY
  • Chef23Chef23 Posts: 6,066 Mega Baller
    @Texas6 does your son go and ski in tournaments with you. For me that is what got me into tournament skiing. Once your son starts chasing scores in tournaments he will understand. That you didn't win and might not ever win.

    There is nothing better than spending a weekend at a lake with your son and the other great people I have met at tournaments.

    That said I do believe that things could change. My son is a three event skier so I would hate to see three eventing disappear. However I do get think that there has to be a way to generate more interest in tournament skiing.

    I think there should be flexibility in the format of events as long as there are certified officials, drivers and judges. The idea of skiing M3 or M4 with two rounds back to back so people don't have to be at the site for 8 hours. For example many M/W2 and 3 skiers may have small kids that are too young to ski and taking off for a full day leaving them with their spouse may not go over well. If they could get 2 rounds in a half a day that would likely help.

    For me tournaments are about the friends I see at tournaments and how I ski in the events which does translate to the ranking list even though I am not that good. I do want my tournament rounds to show up in the ranking list which is a measuring stick for me and my friends that are about the same level.

    There is nothing like getting a new PB at a tournament no matter what level you ski at. It is different than getting a new PB at home.
    Mark Shaffer
    klindyjcamp9400
  • WishWish Posts: 8,462 ★★★Triple Panda Award Recipient ★★★
    @Texas6 that is what took my daughter out of competition. I may get her to do one this year but it is totally based around a weekend of other stuff we will be doing...beach...swimming....camping....she brings a friend. Last year she begged not to do her third round so we could get an early start for the beach. It had already been a looooong day. She had already set her PB...
    @ShaneH that may just be the death of the sport as I think lots of others feel the same. During tournaments, I'll watch all the other 34mph skiers just to see where we all end up comparatively. If I manage to beat most of them, it feels kinda good.
    >>> 11.25..a different kettle of fish. <<<
  • dislanddisland Posts: 1,502 Mega Baller
    Its easy to type into a computer. Its harder to plan and host events. There is ample opportunity for anyone to host events even with class C sanction within the current rules to achieve a competitive format that skiers will love. I know I have done it. If folks want change get involved. But before we start putting in new EVP's they need to understand there is a lot of work involved. We need workers not whiners.
    Dave Island- Princeton Lakes
    jcampBRYntx
  • ntxntx Posts: 847 Crazy Baller
    @ShaneH why do you think you got burned out? What were you expecting to achieve from your skiing? Did you achieve it? If not, did you get burned out because of that? Why are you not having "fun" anymore? What can a tournament host do to change that? I know the tournaments that you ski are generally slalom only. Why are they not fulfilling anymore? All of the answers will help sites to plan for Shane's fun and retain you as a tournament skier. Tell us what needs to be done. It can't just be more rounds and slalom only. You do that now.
  • GregDavisGregDavis Posts: 278 Solid Baller

    disland Posts: 642 Baller

    9:44AM Flag



    Its easy to type into a computer. Its harder to plan and host events.


    LOVE IT, spot on.
  • Razorskier1Razorskier1 Posts: 3,425 Mega Baller
    @DrDave -- I disagree. I've skied tournaments for 20 years. When I was new and setting new PBs with regularity, tournaments were a blast! Now as an old guy I'm just trying to get to my average. Point is, when I was younger and not as far down the rope, many tournaments ended with a big old smile! Now, well, its a whole lot tougher.
    Jim Ross
  • Texas6Texas6 Posts: 2,197
    @Chef23 @Wish, the kid loves skiing and this year he does intend to ski some tourneys. My point is that itbwant appealing, and he's watched me in several tourneys and just doesn't find the tournament that fun. I love the whole thing don't get me wrong, just thinking out loud about appeal to newcomers
    Daryn Dean - Lakes of Katy, TX
    ***Robbed out of Hundreds of Panda Worthy Posts***
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