Next few tricks to learn

arigold22

I am a progressing trick skier who is wondering what tricks to tackle next. I am 22 years old, 6', 180lbs riding a 43" D3 CX LFF and have been tricking for almost 3 years now (mostly collegiate). Tricks I have down so far SS, R, B, F, RB, RF, O, R, WB, WF, RWB, RWF, hand pass WO, WBB, R, Heelside Backflip (sketchy but can ride it out every once in a while), TB, TF, TS. I've been trying other flips, ski-line B, TO, W5F and B. I just am not sure what the best couple tricks to focus on. And since I'm not skiing with a coach I have to basically teach myself. Any help would be appreciated!

Jody_Seal

Hey Trick skiing!! Dont get much of that here. @arigold22 very cool. If you can as you are a big fella you might see if you can borrow a 44" ski to try, you might be surprised on how much easier it is to learn new tricks. How fast do you ski on hands and how fast on toes? as far as new ricks to learn, get that W5 down and wake flip back to front is pretty easy once you have back flips both directions. Reverse toe slide and of course reverse toe back. once you have reverse toe back a whole new door will open.

arigold22

@Jody_Seal I usually ski at 18.5 for both hands and toes but I've been speeding up to 18.8 for hands. Which way is best to learn the W5? I've got a really solid high WO but when I try for the 5 I stall out once I've completed the 360 rotation. I definitely need to get the RTB down but I here its a tough one to learn. But I guess thats how most tricks are after the basic 660 run.

klindy

RTB pull the rope in low and slow. When it's all the way in and you turn backward, think about "sitting in a chair". That body position will help get into and out of the RTB. Don't try to hold it, just move slowly into it and try to control coming out of it.

For the W5 it sounds like you're working on a W5B. Typically the W5F is easier. Assuming you can hold the back wrap position start in the 'easy back' position outside the wake. Strong long pull all the way to the top of the wake. Make sure you wait for the top of the wake before you rotate. The key is advancing on the rope and staying on axis.

arigold22

@klindy I have also worked on the W5F and I can always get the rotation but have a tough time keeping the rope in. I always end up hips back and bent at the waist.

Chef23

@eleeski and @Horton (even though he doesn't like to admit it) know more about tricks than most here. I am sure they will have some advice. You are well beyond the 1300 points I can run.

klindy

@arigold22 thats why I emphasized advancing on the boat for the W5F. Perhaps reach a bit farther forward with your 'free hand' on the rope and make sure you pull it in all the way to your hip. Long, solid pull not a quick jerk.

Bruce_Butterfield

W5F is definitely the first of the 5 series to learn. For a lefty, start outside the left wake in a backwrap, edge in and do a WBB landing backwards with both hands behind your back (not reverse backwrap), pause, then turn front in the same direction. Gradually shorten the pause and you will be doing the W5F in short order.

If you are only doing TB, TF, TS, the next trick is TWB and TWF and RTS. After that, TO (very slow with a pause in the TB position, then TF) TWO and TO wrap in.

RTB can be very hard to learn. I was just a little older than you when I learned it and it took a year and half to learn. You need a good coach for that one.

eleeski

Cool! Someone posting who wants to trick.

Some good advice here. Go ski with Camilo, Cory, Bennetts, Rhoni, Travers, Bel Aqua (with Chris DeVito), @Nason, Stan or any ski school with strong trick credentials. You don't have to live there - just get some direction a couple of times.

Note that you get in the game with your hand pass - but you win with your toe pass. Spend at least as much time toe tricking as on hand tricks.

Also spend a significant portion of your run just playing. Big wake jumps, slack pulls, hard cuts, grabs, slalom pulls, double ups, different versions of tricks (learn the wrapped WO), endless side slides, clown acts - anything fun. The tricks will happen.

Eric

andjules

@arigold22 I think some previous posters are hinting at it, but at the risk of being indelicate, I'll say it straight up: your toes are way behind your hands. But you already knew that.

First off: you're doing great, and a lot of exciting stuff will be opening up for you with your hand tricks.

But: toes toes toes.
I realize that it can get frustrating getting the harness on, doing TB-TF and then trying something and falling. So, every time you get the harness on, do TB-TF 5 or 10 times, really paying attention to rope control, and where the weight is on your ski foot (ball of your foot in the front position; just a touch of weight on your heel in the back position). On dry land, practice flexing your ankle forward while standing on one foot to build your endurance.

Stay at it.
TWB-TWF are next, but once you get RTB, TO and (eventually) TO wrap-in, a whole world opens up.

Horton

What is tricks?

arigold22

@klindy and @Bruce_Butterfield thanks for the advice. I will focus on what you guys said and let you know how it goes.

arigold22

@andjules and @eleeski I agree I need to focus a ton on toes. I have mostly been a collegiate tricker and only get one pass so I hadn't spent any time on toes until the end of last summer. Do you guys have any advice or drills for getting very comfortable in the toehold and riding on the ski while in the toehold? I can ride out almost any hand trick even in poor position because I am super comfortable on the ski but as soon as I put my foot in the toehold its a whole new world. Anytime i get out of position at all I seem to fall back or slip out.

mlusa

The best way to get comfortable is to do toes. Ride in the toe hold and do as many TB & TF's as you can. The key is learning the correct position. Ride along as comfortable as you can. Your goal should be to stand up as much as possible without being to stiff so that your hips are up. You want to be as natural as possible. Don't pay to much attention to bending your knees and forget about your ankles. The more you bend your leg, the more muscle strength plays a part. Watch Anna Gay and Neilly Ross do toes. They are two of the best right now and you will see they stand tall in a natural position that is not to stiff, but also not using an overly bent knee in the ski leg. Instead, concentrate In the front position that your toe leg knee should be high and your thigh almost parallel to the water and leg bent at not quite 90 degrees. The problem for most skiers is that they let their toe leg fall to low and let their leg out to much. Your toe foot should never drop below the height of your ski leg knee. Keeping your toe leg knee high is the secret to effortless spinning on toe tricks. Starting in this position allows for you to pivot without letting your leg way out to pull. The more your leg goes out, the more most people will compensate by breaking at their waist. The goal is to stay tall and keep the hips up so they are always over your binding, not behind. Dropping your hips back creates drag and much more work. Staying tall over the ski makes riding along more effortless and efficient.

Experiment with standing taller vs bending your knee when just riding along and see how much easier it is just to ride along in the taller position and pay attention to whether your weight shifts back on the ski as you bend your knee. You will find that bending your knee to much will cause you to fatigue very quickly. If you are feeling any fatigue in your quad of your ski leg, then you aren't standing up enough. As you ski, you will bend some to absorb, but return to your standing position. As you become more comfortable riding on the ski in a taller stance and develop good leg strength in your toe leg, you will see your toes improve. Most people plateau and don't see much improvement do to poor posture on the ski. Every trick will be a totally new experience rather than just an extension of what you already know.

I would definitely suggest a 44" ski for your size and level. The bigger ski will reduce the amount of effort to do everything. You need as little drag as possible to improve your stance on the ski. The more drag, the more you will compensate by breaking at your waist to try and create more leverage for you pulling, which will create even more drag. Toes can be very frustrating, but also can be a great challenge and can turn into the most enjoyable part of skiing for some skiers.

Russell Gay
www.Quantumskis.com

ToddL

Tricks are for kids! Glad I still think I'm one...

@mlusa Russell, I seem to always fatigue so much sooner on toes. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on posture and effort.

How fast should the boat be going for toes. I'm a little shorter and a little heavier (190) than @arigold22, and I only have the boat at 17.8 on 43.5" trick. Should I speed it up? He's at 18.5. Is that more like it?

@Bruce_Butterfield - thanks for the toe trick progression... I had tried to learn RTS before TWB. Maybe I need to focus more on TWB, TWF. I tried to put the harness on in the TWO position and was a little freaked out first time. I need to do some dry land work with that first...

arigold22

I have the same question as @ToddL. What is a good speed for hand and toe tricks? I've always just gone 18.5 but have been trying to speed it up a bit (18.8) on hands to help a bit with flips.

Chef23

@ToddL TWB and TWF are much easier than RTS and for my money easier than TS. If you can do TB, TF and TS you should be able to add TWB and TWF pretty quick. With my son he would go outside the wake do a TB then do TWF into the wake and try TWB going out. Pretty quickly he got to doing TWB going out and TWF coming in.

I found TWB easier to learn my son found TWF easier. The big key for those tricks for me is to wait for the lift of the wake. For TWB keep the rope in close and I found trying to keep the rope knee in close to my other leg on the landing helped. For TWF keep the rope knee high with your foot in close to your body. A cheat that worked for me on TWF was to reach down for the handle on landing to make sure I didn't fall back.

I am not nearly as good as most of the people giving advice hear so if they contradict something I said I would listen to them.

mlusa

@ToddL I'm 150lbs and on a 42" ski and go 19.1mph. Boat speed is dependent on size and ability. You should definitely try to raising the speed slowly. Over time, try to get your speed up at least 1 mph. I am on a 43" ski for hands and I'm at 19.3mph. Again, speed is based on size and ability. Just because you are bigger, doesn't necessarily mean you will be able to handle a faster speed. These are guidelines to work up towards. Do it slowly. You can't just go up 2 miles/hr. A third factor of speed is rope length. The longer the rope, the slower the boat feels.

arigold22

Thank you @mlusa! I will focus on the things you mentioned and hopefully my toes will take off quickly this season!